♪ > Welcome to This Week In South Carolina I'm Gavin Jackson.

This week we continue our conversations with candidates.

And we also talk with Winthrop University Political Science Professor, Dr.

Scott Huffmon about the latest campaign trail moves and the White House's pressure campaign on South Carolina lawmakers to redraw the state's congressional map.

Even while absentee voting is already underway and in-person early voting starts May 26th.

But first, we talk with Richland Democratic Representative Jermaine Johnson, who is one of three Democrats vying for his party's nomination in the June 9th primary.

The three-term state representative sat down with us here at SCETV and discussed his political career and how he believes he can win in the solidly Republican state.

I opened by asking Johnson about his difficult upbringing and how it shaped him and prepared him for politics.

> I truly am not a politician, man.

You know, I was never... you know, involved with politics, never knew anything about politics.

I come from very humble beginnings.

You know, I talk about on the trail, often about losing my brother to gun violence.

You know, being murdered by his best friend.

I talk about, you know, the family issues with substance abuses and addictions and things like that.

Other family members being sent to prison for, many years.

Going to, seven different high schools, being homeless, living in motels, sleeping on friends couches, all those things like that.

But having an AAU Basketball coach that really wanted to save my life.

And sending me to a prep school, where I saw stars for the first time and snow on the ground- I can tell you, I don't like snow, man.

Gavin> Where was that?

Rep.

Johnson> It was in Upstate New York.

And... sent me up there to go get discovered, but also it was the first time I saw people wearing, you know, shirts and ties like this.

And I realized I wanted something, you know, more for my life.

And I actually went to Upstate New York on September- I took a red-eye, on September 10th, 2001.

So if anybody knows what happened on September 11th, 2001 I was actually, I actually landed at JFK Airport about two hours before the first plane hit the towers.

So I know where I was at.

You know, I know what I was doing.

And, you know, it's just... life for me has just been, very humble.

But, I'm just a blessed man.

Gavin> Yeah.

I mean, that's a lot to deal with.

I mean, you're talking about loss, and you're talking about just going through all that.

I mean, it sounds like you were so close in many ways to falling into despair yourself, too.

Rep.

Johnson> You know, plenty of times that, you know, it's, you feel like there's no hope or there's no, there's no tomorrow, or you're just kind of like, surviving.

You know, I've done a lot of studying, you know, things like Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

I learned about food and shelter, being the primary, thing for people that they want to seek out.

And in my life, you know, it was you know, it was, it was interesting.

It was interesting.

You know, I take this from, my mother, she calls her background "a colorful, she's had a colorful life," and I'd say the same thing.

I've got a colorful life.

I probably lived, like, seven different lifes.

[laughter] You know.

You know, still getting that scholarship to go play basketball at The College of Charleston.

Meeting my wife there and playing professional basketball in the NBA D-League, as well as Brazil, Canada, Portugal, and Mexico.

You know, seeing all these different things, you know, traveling the world, and then eventually getting involved with politics.

Gavin> Yeah, I mean that's like a stabilizing effect there.

I mean, you could have easily, like we said, gone different ways.

But what do you think it was that really kind of... you know, was it the sport?

Was it realizing that there is more to life than maybe what you realized growing up surrounded by and meeting your wife and things like that?

Because, you know, you've seen life, leave this world, but you've also brought life into this world, too, with your family.

Rep.

Johnson> Yeah, well, for me, it was really, therapy, you know.

And I talk about mental health and therapy and counseling a lot as well, removing that stigma and just trying to, you know, suggest that people, you know, have a counselor to talk to them.

Because my brother, my other brother that I had, that was a phenomenal basketball player himself, he passed away in 2015 from a tragic car accident, with a bunch of... my friends.

So with five people total, died in a car accident while I was in Mexico.

So I actually had to go identify my brother's body along with my other four friends.

And that's when I decided that I was gonna retire from basketball.

Because, you know, I was married.

I had, you know, some children at that time, and I wanted to come home and be a husband and father to my family.

When I came home, the transition was I mean, it was terrible, you know.

Because I've been playing basketball my entire life for survival, you know, for food, shelter, for, you know, for support and things, and then coming back, trying to be a civilian.

It's very difficult to make that transition.

So, going to counseling, going to marriage counseling with my pastor, and helping me to see, you know, the future beyond, what basketball was doing for me.

And, you know, I ended up being introduced to some people and I got involved.

Gavin> And so, Jermaine, what was that... what was your business life like?

And then how'd you get into politics, I guess?

Rep.

Johnson> Yeah.

So when I came home, when I retired, I created a nonprofit organization.

The nonprofit was about helping young people, helping, people who had been to prison and helping military veterans get a second chance at life, with, life skills and soft skills development.

I had that, that program that I created, sponsored by USC to make sure anybody that came through my program would get CEUs.

And then I ended up partnering with a bunch of businesses that would give people a job opportunity after coming through my program.

So that's how I got involved with, you know, just essentially serving the community is just, looking at my own life story, looking at my family's life story, and trying to help people like that to not have to go through what we went through, in my life.

And that is what introduced me to the Midlands Fatherhood Coalition.

And then I started helping men become more involved in the lives of their children.

And advocating for young people.

And that's how I got introduced to state representatives and senators, who were saying that, "Jermaine, you need to consider a life in politics.

You need to consider getting involved."

Before that time, I knew nothing about politics.

I was not involved with politics at all.

I just knew some people around who were change makers or trying to do change.

But once they discovered, you know, everything that I was talking about and advocating for, and hearing my story and everything I've had to overcome they were like, "man, like, you would be the perfect person to get involved with politics."

Gavin> And so you did.

I mean, talk to us about the time you've been in office in the House of Representatives representing Lower Richland County.

And then also, that decision not to run concurrently for that seat while at the same time running for the nomination for governor.

Especially since there is a primary fight underway for that.

You know, what you did in the House, what you're most proud of.

Obviously, it's difficult being a Democrat in the State House with the supermajority of Republicans.

But what do you look back upon your time there that you can say, I'm glad I was there for this.

Rep.

Johnson> Yeah, well... you know, I've done a lot while I'm in the State House, man.

You know, I'm on the LCI Committee, right now.

And that's, that's very unique for somebody who's only been in there six years to be on an LCI Committee.

Right?

So what I... I'm essentially most proud of is the relationships I've been able to build, not just in the Democratic Party, but in the Republican Party.

You know, I've made relationships with everybody in the State House.

And I'm sure you've seen me, you know, sitting around with everybody, you know, having conversations with everybody.

And even in my farewell speech, you heard I talked about everybody.

I talked about the Freedom Caucus, the Republicans and the Democrats, with the relationships, that I've built.

And that's essentially what I'm most proud of.

And that's what makes me unique and qualified to be the governor, is the relationships that I've built with all of our leaders across the state, regardless of, party or affiliation.

And, you know, I've been able to do some good things.

I actually received an award from the University of Delaware due to my bipartisanship, being able to work across the aisle, to bring the statue of Robert Smalls to the Statehouse grounds.

And, one of the things that I'm also most proud of is in my district, there was no medical facility.

So I met with a bunch of the hospitals, the administration.

I actually was able to get the CEO of MUSC to come to my house.

And I put him in my car and I drove him around my district to show him what my district looked like.

And now, if you drive down Garners Ferry you'll see an emergency center that will be opening on June 18th of this year.

So that's actually my, like, one of my most proudest moments.

You know, actually my mic drop moment.

Because now we're actually saving lives.

> And that's a testament to just how much growth is happening.

Not just in the Midlands, in Richland County and suburban Columbia, but also just across the state, too.

But you're seeing that, and I guess finding those issues.

I mean, that's just one small aspect of the growth that we're talking about in terms of, you know, how do we keep up with this, especially with the grey tsunami, that's coming too.

It's worrisome to see them have to deal with that.

But Jermaine you're 40.

Rep.

Johnson> Yeah, I'm 40 man.

Gavin> I'm 40 too, so we're in the same boat here.

So that being said, like, you know, incredible life story some time in office and then last October, all of a sudden you said, I'm going to run for governor.

What prompted you to do that at that point?

> Well, you know, a lot of people got introduced to me from that, viral video that went around, it's been seen by, you know, six, seven million people or something like that, at this point.

Where I was speaking out against the, the anti-diversity, equity, and inclusion, thing.

And people all around South Carolina began reaching out to me and saying, "man, like, we need your voice on a bigger level."

People wanted me to advocate for them.

And then, you know, I started getting phone calls and emails from people all around America, saying the same thing.

And then all of a sudden, I started getting contacted from people all around the world, began reaching out to me, you know, asking for me to lead on a, on a bigger stage.

Saying that I gave, voice to their pain, words to their pain, and that they wanted to see more of me, to do that.

And that's why I, you know, I went around the state, even before I announced that I was running.

So I can get the opinions of the people of South Carolina to see, you know, if they wanted me to run for office, if they wanted me to do some things.

And ultimately, I settled upon, you know, announcing my run for governor so that I could make sure, that the people are being truly represented.

Gavin> So how does a Democrat do that?

I mean, we know the challenges, again.

There's a solid, probably ten point margin there with Republicans versus Democrats in the state.

We haven't seen a Democrat hold the mansion since 1998.

What's, how do you make that work for you?

I mean, you're talking about your relationships too.

Is that kind of the key part in trying to appeal to folks out there?

Rep.

Johnson> Well, you know, I've been able to appeal to a lot of people.

You know, I go to Republican events and things like that, and I talk to people.

There's not a place that I won't go, and there's not a person who I won't talk to.

And in South Carolina, you know, we're seeing the we're seeing what's happening here.

People are hurting.

People are in pain.

You know, farmers, you know, we have farmers of all political affiliation, but all of them are suffering right now regardless of political affiliation.

People are suffering right now, regardless of political affiliation.

We have lots of issues here, you know, and it's only seeming like it's getting worse.

And when you've had a Republican single party trifecta for, you know, almost 30 years, you know, you got the governor, you got the supermajority in the House, supermajority in the Senate.

There's really no where else to place the blame except for squarely on that single party, because they have that, all of that power.

And we know that not a single Democrat has to show up to the State House, and they can still pass any law that they want.

So, you know, I think that's where the Democrats... where we have failed, is not giving, not producing the message to the people to to educate the people as to why our roads look the way that they look.

Why our education system is the way that it is, why things are the way they are.

It's because the power is squarely on one side.

And I think we have to disrupt status quo and to get something different in there.

The hard part about you know, being in leadership is that when you have all of that power on one side, it's hard for them to police themselves.

You know, they create, you know, internal fighting, but they won't police themselves.

Somebody like myself, I get to come in there and disrupt status quo and actually call things out.

Gavin> When you're talking about, you know, the status quo we're talking about the ideologies of lawmakers.

How do you describe yourself on the political spectrum too?

I mean, obviously a Democrat, but like... I think a lot of times people think Democrat, quote "woke liberal," Right?

They always use that term or something like that.

We were just talking to some other folks in this race that are more moderates.

How would you describe yourself, when it comes to the spectrum of political ideology?

Rep.

Johnson> I'd say, I'm a different kind of Democrat.

I've been saying that all over the place.

I'm a different kind of Democrat.

I say we don't want DC in SC.

I want to be a true South Carolina first governor.

And I think that's how we need to be leading here.

If we were truly trying to do South Carolina first, we would not be entertaining what's happening in DC right now.

We would not be entertaining all the different things that they're trying to force upon us right now.

We would be looking at the grand scheme of things.

How are the people doing in South Carolina?

And people are not doing so well in South Carolina right now.

And I think that's what we need to get back to, is truly, is no matter who's in the White House, no matter if it's a Republican or a Democrat in the White House, if it doesn't benefit the people of South Carolina, we should not be entertaining these ideas.

And, that's just who I am as a person.

And, you know, I don't know if I'm a moderate.

I don't know if I'm a progressive.

I don't know if I'm left-leaning or right-leaning or whatever it is.

I'm just a people first type of individual, which is why I call myself, just a different kind of Democrat.

Gavin> Because sometimes we do see floor debates too where, you know, your party leader, Todd Rutherford's making these cases and you're backing him up most of the time too getting up there.

I mean, you talk... you always say you don't talk unless you really kind of need to talk, and you're moved to.

And then you do make salient points, of course.

But when, you know, sometimes you're talking about things that all of a sudden it seems like they're restricting, rights when folks are talking about always, you know, empowering and giving people more personal freedom.

So it's always interesting to see that dynamic play out.

I don't think everyone gets to see that, you know, in the State House as much unless you're watching ETV all day.

But... that being said, Jermaine, what would your priorities be when you get into office?

What do you want to see done?

Maybe your top three?

Rep.

Johnson> Well, I... before I announced that I was even running for governor, and before my exploratory committee, I traveled around the state, with an organization that's, around about, saving kids lives.

And I went around the state to about 30 different counties.

And, because I wanted to hear the issues of each county and every county said the exact same thing.

They said mental health resources.

Every place that I went, they said they wanted more, resources for mental health.

But we have to look at what that all entails.

You know, that means we need more mental health facilities.

We need more, mental health providers on staff, for sheriff departments and police departments and school districts.

You know, we need more, more mental health investment, community health care workers.

You know, we need those types of things.

We also need to make sure that, our infrastructure is repaired.

We need to prioritize the, the worst roads and not just, fix the infrastructure that's in somebody's wealthy neighborhood.

You know, we gotta- we can't continue to forget our rural communities.

We've forgotten our rural communities.

And of course, education.

You know, us being 43rd in education.

I'm sure you remember when we used to be able to say "thank God for Mississippi."

We can no longer say that.

Mississippi is in the top ten in public education.

And I think we should be embarrassed by the fact that we are still 43rd in education.

We need to address those three issues.

Mental health, because that will help save people's lives.

That's our workforce.

That's the future of this state.

You know, our infrastructure is, a complete hazard.

It's keeping our car insurance up so high.

And we also have to make sure our children are educated.

Because, you know, a stronger... youth can produce better schools, better schools produce, you know, a stronger workforce, a stronger workforce produces a better community.

> Joining me now is Winthrop Political Science Professor Dr.

Scott Huffmon.

Scott, welcome back.

Dr.

Huffmon> Ah, happy to be with you.

> So, Scott, it has been a chaotic few days at the State House.

As most Republicans are going full throttle into redistricting mode at the behest of the President in an attempt to redraw the current congressional map that includes six solidly Republican districts and one solidly Democratic one.

The attempt is to eliminate Sixth District Democratic Congressman Jim Clyburn's seat and make it more advantageous for Republicans.

This is part of a nationwide push going on, that's been going on for months.

What have you observed in all of this?

> Well, you know, as we saw when the Senate weighed in and didn't want to have a special session, there are strategic reasons to not do this.

And there are practical reasons as well.

You know, Majority Leader Massey pointed out, look, we could end up with five-two instead of seven-zero.

Now, that's not likely to happen.

That would be called a "dummymander."

And a dummymander is when you redraw a district line for your party, and it ends up helping the other party.

At least one district in Texas is going to end up a dummymander maybe a couple more.

But in South Carolina it's going to end up seven-zero.

But Massey pointed out that it will affect the down ticket races, when more Democrats turn out for a competitive race.

So you might end up with more Democratic mayors, more Democratic city council, more Democratic, you know, school board.

So there were strategic reasons, but also practical reasons.

You have to reopen the primaries.

Ballots have already been sent out.

However, the most important thing of all this, what does Trump say?

You know, the legislators really don't answer to the general public.

They do what they think is best for the general public.

And that is what the primary voters in their district think.

And the primary voters in their district have elected the most MAGA representatives.

So when Trump speaks, they listen.

Gavin> And Scott, to that effect you're talking about Senate Majority Leader Shane Massey, who's a Republican from Edgefield.

And he said he doesn't think the proposed map would actually help Republicans, and make that sweep.

You're saying it should be seven-zero.

Do you think it might actually just stay six-one at that point?

Dr.

Huffmon> You know, there is always the possibility that, again, it depends on turnout.

When a map is drawn, it's always better drawn by the people back home who can get incredibly fine-grained.

Now, obviously the national map, they're going to be able to use the GIS as well.

But at home, people can redraw maps based on streets and have houses in one district or another, and the local representatives know exactly how that's going to play out.

So if they end up imposing a map from above, yeah, it could make one or more districts more competitive.

Again, is it possible?

Absolutely.

Is it likely?

Probably not over 50 percent.

But look, if you've got a 30 percent chance of rain, you may still get wet.

So this may not help them in the way that they think.

But Trump is only thinking about the national strategy of not losing the House.

And the state representatives have a lot more things they have to take into consideration.

But once again, when Trump speaks, the hardcore Republicans, and that's who gets elected when Trump speaks, they listen.

Gavin> And to that effect, we did see him tweet before that Senate vote this week, saying in part to be bold and courageous specifically to the Senate.

He did talk to Senate Majority Leader Massey twice.

He also talked to the caucus, on a call as well.

And again, there was apprehension there.

We did see that sine die resolution that could dictate what lawmakers could take up after the, State House adjourns today at 5 p.m.

We did see that sine die resolution, which included redistricting, get blocked because five Republicans joined the 12 Democrats to prevent a two-thirds vote to get that sine die resolution passed.

That has now prompted the Governor to call them back.

He's set to call them back today, for tomorrow, on Friday and going forward into next week to take up this district map.

And you make a good point there too, Scott that, the representatives, all 124 House seats are up for reelection this year.

That June 9th primary we were talking about.

At least 24, 24 Republicans do have Republican primary challengers.

That's weighing on them versus the Senate, which is not up for reelection until next year.

So it's not going to be like that Indiana situation where we saw five senators get kicked out for going against redistricting there.

And this is a big move.

I mean, kind of going back to what you're saying about Trump asking and doing, we're seeing.

The Governor had a huge change of heart, recently, to call them back into session.

That was something that he was not, saying he was going to do.

And that changed the dynamic just this past week.

But it seems, again, like a big gamble, but, you're not even getting public input at this point.

It doesn't seem like anyone seems to care about that.

It's a completely different process than what we've seen in the past.

But we are seeing that, that power being flexed by Trump here in South Carolina.

Dr.

Huffmon> Yeah, this is a, very top-down process.

The desire to do this is coming from above.

You know, there is not a strong stomach for it coming from the bottom-up.

But again, all local politics is now nationalized.

You know, every race that's run from dogcatcher up has a tint of national politics to it.

And again, the Senate was more willing to be reluctant because, as you pointed out, the election doesn't threaten them as much.

McMaster, again showing the idea that, look, this may not be strategically good, but he turned around because he owed his governorship, his initial governorship, to Trump, appointing Governor then Governor Nikki Haley as the UN Ambassador.

So when Trump called he being a friend of Trump, doing each other favors, he listened.

The Senate, we will see, it's dangerous to go against Trump even if you're not up for reelection right now.

And we'll see how it, how it goes.

But yeah, this is a top-down situation where usually redistricting is from the bottom-up.

It's not true grassroots like they try and play it out.

They try and say the people are asking, for this to be redrawn.

That's simply not true.

That's for show.

But it is usually bottom-up and it's not this time.

Gavin> And Scott to that effect too we did see some far-right Republicans in the House, the Freedom Caucus, specifically pushing this earlier in the year.

There was a small hearing in February in the House about this.

And it didn't go anywhere.

It's something that they've been calling for, saying that they do have a supermajority in both the House and the Senate, and they should be flexing that muscle to push through such political, moves like this, like a new map.

And of course, this all really got juiced up after the Supreme Court decision of Louisiana v. Callais.

However, unlike Louisiana, our maps are not racially gerrymandered as the court ruled.

Ours are a partisan gerrymander that was upheld by the Supreme Court in 2024.

So I'm also wondering about the legal ramifications of whatever happens over the coming days, especially as we push up against that voter deadline May 26th for in-person voting.

We've also heard from the State Supreme Court last year about how, you know, they can still weigh in on this matter, and that seems like it could be a factor, but it doesn't seem like anyone seems to care about the legal ramifications at this point, rather than just trying to get this done before the May 26th in-person early voting deadline.

> Right.

And again if... you know, the political ramifications are the most important the legal ramifications, the Supreme Court, the State Supreme Court says, "no, you can't do this."

They can go, "aw-shucks, we tried."

You know, that said, right now, gerrymandering is flipped.

It used to be that if you could prove a gerrymander disproportionately hurt a community of color, minorities, then it would have to be redrawn.

And that came from the Voting Rights Act, Section Two, 1965.

However, this has flipped the script.

With the, Louisiana case, you now have to prove intent to discriminate by race.

And that's nearly impossible, because you're not going to have somebody on the record saying, "hey, we want to deliberately prevent this minority from voting."

Because African-Americans vote 90 percent Democratic, it's always going to disproportionately affect African-Americans.

But as you pointed out, in South Carolina, the Alexander case showed that ours was a fully political gerrymander, completely legal.

Would it be legal to slice it up?

Look at what happened in Tennessee, Memphis has been sliced up into multiple districts.

So it's not beyond the pale.

It would be legal.

And Republicans, including, you know, gubernatorial candidate Ralph Norman was calling for this a long time ago, saying "we're a Republican dominant state.

We ought to act like it and take over every single seat."

So the Republican Party, again, based on polarization, the idea that the other side, the Democrats, will never govern ethically.

If you believe that, then you believe you are morally bound to take away almost every seat that they have.

Gavin> And Scott, we just have about 90 seconds left here.

I want to ask you about the governor's race.

You just talked about Ralph Norman, there.

There have been two Republican gubernatorial debates right now.

We haven't really seen too many breakout moments, any major attacks.

Their PACs are attacking each other it seems like on TV, there's a lot of ads going around.

Recent polling kind of continues to show that Lieutenant Governor Pamela Evette, Attorney General Alan Wilson and Ralph Norman, Congressman Norman and Congresswoman Mace are still jockeying for the positions, here moving around.

What's your take on how things are going right now?

We're less than 30 days away from the June 9th primaries.

Anyone... the clear front runner at this point?

Dr.

Huffmon> I don't think so.

Despite, you know, polls saying one person's up, another person's up.

Remember, if it's within the margin of error and within the margin of error each way from one person up and the other person down, that's how that works.

Nobody's really, truly ahead.

You can really see trends if you look at the same pollster.

Especially the nonpartisan one, the pollsters look at their trends and you're going to be able to tell something there.

If Trump jumps into this race, we can see things begin to happen.

The only person I've seen defy Trump, is the Sheriff of Rockingham County in North Carolina, Sheriff Page.

Who Trump said please drop out of the race against Republican Phil Berger.

And Page said, respectfully, "no."

And he won by fewer than 30 votes over the most powerful man in North Carolina.

So people do buck Trump but very, very rarely.

Gavin> So much to look forward to in the coming days.

That's Winthrop University Political Science Professor, Dr.

Scott Huffmon.

Scott, thanks so much.

And that's it for us this week.

For South Carolina ETV, I'm Gavin Jackson.

Be well South Carolina.

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