Welcome to This Week In South Carolina I'm Gavin Jackson.

This week we have the exit interview with U.S. Attorney of South Carolina Adair Ford Boroughs.

And we talk with Senator Larry Grooms about the $1.8 billion accounting error that has rocked state balance sheets and what a recent audit found.

But first, President Joe Biden was in South Carolina on Sunday, his last full day in office.

TV cameras were with him on this final trip to the state that propelled him to the white House.

President Biden and First Lady Jill Biden spent the last full day of the Biden presidency, the culmination of some 50 years in politics in South Carolina, the state that brought him to the big dance of the 2020 primary.

In a state, it's people and politicians that have been close to him for decades.

>> We just heard from the first two of 50 states, two of them not all the nation, not half the nation, not a quarter of the nation, not 10%, two.

And where I come from that's the opening bell.

Gavin> One of Biden's closest and most important relationships has been with 6th District Congressman Jim Clyburn, whose endorsement of Biden in the 2020 South Carolina Democratic presidential primary at the behest of Clyburn's late wife Emily, was key to Biden winning the diverse Democratic voting bloc during that primary, which helped propel him to the white House.

Part of Biden's trip took him to Royal Missionary Baptist Church in North Charleston, a spot he last visited days before the 2020 primary.

Biden and others remembered Doctor Martin Luther King's legacy, a day ahead of the official holiday, with the 46th president leaving the congregation with a message of hope and perseverance, traits well understood within the Black community.

(applause) So, the people of South Carolina, thank you for keeping the faith.

It's been the honor of my life to serve as your president.

The highest honor for Jill and our family.

As I close out this journey with you, I'm just as passionate about our work as it was as a 29 year old kid.

When I got elected, when no one up to serve yet.

Clyburn thanked Biden for his work.

And so that history will judge him kindly.

>> Lyndon Johnson would not appreciate it.

But when people look back... they appreciate.

So I want to say to you, good friend.

Very little appreciation has been shown...recently.

Faint not.

History...will be very kind to you.

(applause) Gavin> Supporters lined the motorcade route on the Charleston Peninsula as Biden made his way to and from the International African American Museum, which he toured with First Lady Jill Biden, the director, Clyburn, former Mayor Joe Riley and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin bode Biden's bid goodbye to a state that has supported them through thick and thin.

>> You helped us heal when we had reached life's lowest lows, and it's also here in 2020 where you gave us wings.

After healing us you believed in Joe's courage and conviction to heal our nation.

South Carolina made sure that Joe became the 46th president of the United States.

(applause) Biden> Our nation is not based on religion or ethnicity or geography or some ethnic component.

We are the only nation in the world, the only one in the history of the world built on an idea.

The idea was we're all created equal and deserve to be treated equally throughout our lives.

Standing here, we know we've never fully lived up to that idea.

We've never walked away from it either from slavery to emancipation, from the Civil War to the Civil Rights movement, from the reckoning on race today, there's been a long line of Black patriots who've helped make the promise of America real for all Americans.

Gavin> Biden departed Joint Base Charleston late Sunday afternoon back to Washington, where in less than 24 hours his political career would end.

While the benefits of it will continue to be felt in the Palmetto State for years to come.

Joining me now is Berkeley Republican Senator Larry Grooms, who chairs the constitutional budget subcommittee on the Senate Finance Committee.

Senator Grooms, welcome back.

Sen. Grooms> Thanks for having me.

Gavin> So you have a lot going on in that subcommittee.

I want to just kind of get a broad overview, Senator, about what's been going on since we last spoke, last April about this situation, this $1.8 billion accounting discrepancy on the state books.

We just found out this month through a forensic audit, multimillion dollar forensic audit, that this money does not exist.

There's not $1.8 billion in a pass through account somewhere.

There's a lot of details here we can get into, but tell us about this audit and what it found.

And if it, confirmed your suspicions.

>> Well, last year, as we spoke, the treasurer had testified under oath before our subcommittee about the 1.8 billion.

It seems he had lost track of it.

And his job as treasurer is to keep track of the funds.

So we're $1.8 billion in a fund, doesn't know where it's supposed to go.

And then there were, suggestions that it should be sent back to the taxpayer, the 1.8 billion.

Then others had some ideas.

Well, wait a minute.

That money may belong to the DOT.

It may belong to retirement funds.

Let's find out where the money belongs.

And the argument sort of shifted away from why there's an error of $1.8 billion within our treasury.

So the shift began, and the conversation then began.

People even campaigned on the fact that I'm going to send this money back to the taxpayer, all the while trying to discover the origins of the money, and, and I suspect that I think I even shared it on your show that the money probably doesn't exist.

Well, we hired a forensic auditing team to come in and straighten out our state's finances.

They, they examined more than 7000 accounts, how the money passed through.

They had, conversations with many current and former employees of the state treasurer's office, the controller general's office, our state's auditor, our external auditor, examining thousands of documents.

They now have compiled their report, and they say categorically that the $1.8 billion dollars does not exist.

1.56 billion of those moneys never existed.

About 200 and something million dollars did exist, but those moneys had been appropriated and had been spent.

So there's no surplus fund, funds around.

There's no money excess to send back to the taxpayer.

And it's kind of like all smoke and mirrors, it just never existed.

Gavin> Does that kind of show the extent of the problem when you have the treasurer who recently put on his Facebook page that, what he answered last year was fair and accurate as far as he knew, based on reporting from other financial officials and documentation.

So at the time, he said that, that money did exist.

Now we know it didn't exist.

Does that kind of illustrate how bad the problem was, if he believed that it did exist, and now we know it didn't?

Sen. Grooms> Well, if you're treasurer, whose in charge of keeping the tax dollars safe, doesn't know whether $1.8 billion exists or not, when he testifies under oath that he earned $225 million in interest, and that interest was sent to the General Assembly, and that we spent the interest on that money when he testifies under oath.

When asked, is this money real, is it tangible?

Can you put your hands on it?

And the answer under oath is yes, there's a problem.

So either he was sorely mistaken or he lied.

Gavin> And when it come, when it comes to that senator, does that mean it's also not just him being the problem here, but the former comptroller general, Richard Eckstrom, and then also the auditor being looped into this?

I mean, is it, is it just on him or is it just kind of a culmination of these officials that were kind of also to blame?

Sen. Grooms> The 1.8 billion is on him.

The, the nearly 7 billion, and overestimates of what our cash position was by the former comptroller.

That's on him.

That's where this all started.

There was a misstatement three years ago that we examined by Comptroller General Eckstrom that suggested that our state had $3.5 billion in cash reserves, that we really didn't have.

Come to find out that number was closer to 7 billion.

And then there were offsets that included this 1.8 billion, another 500 million.

that wasn't in the proper accounts from the, Department of Transportation.

All totaled together, our state books were a mess.

Errors by the Comptroller General, absolutely.

We investigated that.

He ended up resigning.

And then the new comptroller general saying, well, the state books still aren't fixed, There's a problem here.

I see a multibillion dollar problem that resides within the Treasury.

And the treasurer did not want to comment on it, didn't want to have conversation with the Comptroller General.

And so the investigation with my subcommittee continued, which led to, lots of testimony, which led to, spending $3 million on a forensic audit that says that the 1.8 billion doesn't exist.

>>...even though money wasn't missing.

And it's, you know, when there's no criminal activity detected, we're still spending money on this money that doesn't exist.

So that's exciting for all of us taxpayers.

But, are there any more unresolved issues when it comes to the accounting systems in the state?

Is there any more money that we know about having some sort of issues or not being assigned correctly?

>> Well, the journal entries have not been made to correct the errors.

The forensic auditing team have given us a blueprint of what needs to occur with the various accounts in our state's accounting system to make sure that the books are now correctly accounted for, their correctly adjusted.

And when we do this, we're going to have to give notification, regarding a financial statement that was published regarding the $3.5 billion error a few years ago.

The 1.8 billion is actually part of that 3.5 billion.

So some more detail has to be given over why there was an error.

So that has to go into a financial document.

But but worse than that and I can disclose this now is that because of the errors within our state's financial system, when we prepared this document called the ACFR, the annual financial reconciliation of our state, that's a document that the credit rating agencies use to say whether we're in good financial health or not.

It's a document that, institutional investors use when they decide if they're going to buy bonds from South Carolina or from any of our political subdivisions.

And when we say we have cash reserves of 3.5 billion, and then they find out that we really didn't.

They look at us a little bit funny.

Because our accounting wasn't accurate.

Decisions were made based on multimillion dollar mistakes within our accounting system that draws the attention of the Securities and Exchange Commission.

There are certain, legal obligations our state has to do with our accounting.

The Securities and Exchange Commission has launched an investigation into our state's finances.

They, they've had multiple interviews with state officials.

And our attorney general has now expended four million dollars in defense of our state in regards to the Securities and Exchange Commission investigation, and has now requested an additional $5.5 million for continued legal defense in our Securities and Exchange Commission investigation.

So this is this, this fake money, this, this, accounting error, this big error that's been described is now cost us upwards of $12 million.

And that doesn't also include the fees when it comes to I think, Treasurer Curtis Loftis' office, legal fees, which are hundreds of thousands of dollars a month too, I believe.

Sen. Grooms> Yes, there are additional fees, other than what the attorney general has expended from the various agencies that they're taking a look at.

Gavin> So, Senator, when it comes down to what needs to happen, you're just talking about recommendations there.

But do you think more needs to happen?

We heard from you've, calling for the treasurer to resign.

We've seen Columbia Democratic Representative Heather Bauer filing articles of impeachment in the House.

The governor has said that he still has confidence in Loftis and citing that others were involved in this big error.

House Speaker Smith has a committee doing its own investigation in light of this audit.

What do you see, steps forward?

What needs to be done to fix this problem and to restore trust, because it sounds like our credit rating is under the gun here?

Sen. Grooms> Our credit rating is under the gun.

The, the forensic auditors came in and they gave us, they gave us some specific recommendations to do.

One, how to correct the mistakes that are there.

And, and another suggesting that we do our state auditing differently, but more immediate, they recommended that we hire a third party independent financial overseer, a compliance firm, to take a look at all the transactions that the, that the treasurer is engaged in right now and how that's reported to the Comptroller General to ensure that it's being done, in a way that others can have confidence that it's correct.

And if, and if we don't do this, it's very likely that the Securities and Exchange Commission would impose that type of financial oversight over us.

And if we don't do it, they're going to do it.

And if they do it, we'll lose some of the control that we could otherwise have and it would be more costly.

So our subcommittee passed a, favorable, we gave a favorable report to a resolution that authorizes the Department of Administration to go ahead and hire a third party financial, a financial babysitter, in essence, to take a look at exactly what's happening within the Treasurer's office to ensure that the right mechanisms and the, and that the transparency with the way the transactions occur and how they are accounted for.

Gavin> And again, the more money, we're talking about here to do that, and the position that should be are you doing that?

So are there more moves, when they need to happen when it comes to, laws on the books?

We only have a few minutes left here.

But when it comes to making these positions, having more oversight, putting them under the governor, for example, what do you think needs to happen there when it comes to these positions?

Sen. Grooms> Oh, I believe the comptroller general and the, treasurer should be appointed by the governor.

These are professional opinions... these are professional positions.

We need to have accountants, not crusaders, taking a look at our state's book and reporting the transactions.

And if there are issues with communication, as we've now documented through the independent forensic audit, through the Mauldin and Jenkins report through outside sources.

I know, and it's been, testimony to the fact that communication between the auditor and the treasurer and the comptroller have not been the best conversations we've got, a clash of personalities and good information isn't passed.

And instead of the Comptroller and the treasurer being a check on each other, as the law says they should be, they've almost been a cloak for each other.

The comptroller had issues.

The treasurer had issues.

They both knew the other side had issues, but they didn't want to speak about it.

And each, the comptroller and the treasurer has a lawful duty to inform the General Assembly when there are matters of importance that we need to know, and making one of the largest no not one of... making...as we've now heard, the largest financial blunder in the history of states.

No state has had errors like this over 3 billion, sometimes up to 7 billion, with their accounting system.

That's unheard of.

That's unprecedented.

That needs to go away.

The governor needs to be able to knock those two heads together and get them to play ball, or be able to fire one of them.

Gavin> You know, a lot to look forward to this session, a lot of, a lot that still has to be resolved here.

And we'll be following along with you.

That's Berkeley Republican Senator Larry Grooms.

Thanks for joining us, sir.

Sen. Grooms> Thank you.

Gavin> Joining me now for her exit interview is U.S. Attorney Adair Ford Boroughs for South Carolina.

Adair, welcome.

Boroughs> Thank you.

>> So the last time we talked to you was back in July.

In 2022, when you were appointed by President Biden, then President Biden, to be the U.S. Attorney for South Carolina.

People can find that interview on our YouTube page if they want to see that.

But looking back over your time in office here serving the state of South Carolina at the federal level.

Can you tell us some of the highlights, some of the big cases that your office prosecuted?

>> Yeah.

So we're really proud of our civil rights work over the last few years.

We had, five hate crime convictions over kind of two cases, including the first trial in the country, related to the murder of someone based on their gender identity.

We've done a lot in the violent crime space and gangs and gun violence and been really strategic there and trying to make our prosecutions have impact in the community and driving down crime.

So that's been a really big one.

And then of course, we've seen just influx of fentanyl and drugs in the state that we've been trying to tackle.

And there's just, there's so much in the purview of the US attorney's office.

It's so critical.

We have sextortion cases, child exploitation cases.

Just a lot of work to be done.

Gavin> Yeah.

Because you're working with all those federal partners, the FBI, other, federal agencies within the state that operate here to prosecute all these cases, investigate these cases.

So when we talk about the hate crimes, for example, tell us about those why those are so significant when it comes to prosecuting them in South Carolina, where we don't have a hate crimes bill.

Boroughs> Well, you just said it.

That's exactly why, at the federal level, I think it's more important in our district than maybe some other districts, because if we don't do it, no one will.

And that was a really important thing for me when we were deciding, how, what to prioritize and how to spend resources.

If, if there's someone else that can and will do this work, that's one thing.

But when we're the only ones able to do it, it means, we're the only ones able to protect the public in those spaces.

And so it was really important, from my perspective, not only to work those cases, but also let the public know that we do that.

So many members of the public do not know what the U.S. Attorney's office is And we did a number of community events where we were going out and educating the public.

And I started every one of those events with is there a hate crimes law that can be enforced here in the state of South Carolina and resoundingly, unanimously, every audience would tell me no.

And so we were doing a lot to let people know there is one that can be enforced.

It's federal.

And so it's really crucial that the public report those crimes to the FBI.

Gavin> And when we talk about that federal hate crimes law, Adair, is it harder to get that, to get those crimes, you know, investigated and prosecuted at the federal level versus if we had a state law, would it be easier or what, what's the hang up there?

Because it sounds like I talked to law enforcement.

It sounds like sometimes they could have more communication.

They'd have more resources available if there was a state law versus a citizen pretty much having directly having to go to the FBI or maybe a law enforcement having to initiate that.

Boroughs> Yeah.

So it would always depend on what the, the text of the state hate crimes law would be about, whether it would be more expensive than the federal ones.

But just from a resource standpoint, you know, it never hurts to have more tools in your toolbox as, as it goes.

And at the federal level, you know, we do have 68 attorneys statewide, civil and criminal.

So there's only so many cases we can take.

There's only so much we can do.

And so there's always going to be some amount of limited resources there.

Gavin> Yeah, back in I think December 2023, there was a, cross burning in a Conway neighborhood involving, you know, White neighbors versus Black neighbors who had just moved in that neighborhood.

It's my understanding that, that case got to the to the level of federal officials, not even the local level, but through the, I think the FBI in Charlotte eventually got passed through and the NAACP got involved at that level, too.

But it's, it's a matter of folks not even going to their local police departments to kind of report these situations.

Boroughs> Well, in that situation, it was reported to, to locals, but sometimes even locals don't know, oh, we should be taking this to the FBI.

And the FBI's done a great job with us and educating, you know, state and local officers as well as the public.

And in that case, actually the victims went to the NAACP first, and the NAACP knew to go to the FBI, because of some of the work we've done there.

And so, you know, that's a case that but for that education, we might not have known about, Gavin> Because a lot of people say we don't need any more laws.

We have enough laws on the books.

So what's your argument to that when they say that when it comes to hate crimes, Boroughs> Oh, the hate crimes such as enforcing it is particularly important, I think, because of the impact on the community.

If you have a murder that is someone's being murdered out of rage because, a significant other cheated.

You know, that's one thing.

When you have someone that's murdered because of their religion or the color of their skin- Gavin> -Being transgender.

>> or being transgender, and when it's done in a way that really invokes fear and terror in a community, you know, it's, it's a similar kind of theory as to why terrorism is different than murder in general is because you're trying to invoke terror.

And a lot of these hate crimes, if you think about, like Dylann Roof, they're trying to invoke kind of terror in the community.

And so it's, I think needs a special level of enforcement and care.

Gavin> You also worked closely with the Mother Emanuel A.M.E Church shooting ten years ago.

You're involved in that, through a judge's office and the Charleston loophole still exists.

That was the way that Dylann Roof was able to get a gun for that massacre.

And that's a, the loophole where, you know, if you have a background check that doesn't get cleared within three days, it's at the discretion of the gun owner to, the gun store owner to sell that weapon.

If they feel that they can do that.

They're covered to do that.

And that's what happened there.

What do you make of that not being done at the federal level or at the state level, especially ten years on.

Now, looking at that mass tragedy.

Boroughs> Yeah.

Well, I, I'm not allowed to comment on legislation and my, my current role ethics rules prevent me from commenting or promoting particular types of legislation.

Or proposals like that.

Gavin> but they could possibly be something I would help, I guess, if you don't want to weigh in there too.

Boroughs> Yeah.

I, I'm, I'm all for law enforcement having the tools they need to enforce the laws we have.

Gavin> And when you look at law enforcement challenges in South Carolina, what are the biggest ones facing us right now?

We were just talking about hate crimes.

We're talking about, guns on the streets.

You're talking about gangs and fentanyl.

People are talking about the border.

There's a lot of concerns about immigration.

What do you see in zero days wind down at the U.S. Attorney's office in South Carolina?

What do you see as the biggest challenges for your, successor?

Boroughs> You know, I think gun violence and and the ubiquity of guns is a real problem.

When I came into this job, I spoke to sheriffs and to chiefs to federal, law enforcement officers, to, to the bench and community groups.

And no matter who I talked to, guns was the problem, firearms.

And we are seeing now, machine conversion devices, little pieces of plastic that you can stick on a gun and turn them into automatic weapon that is frankly not controllable.

Even trained law enforcement officers have difficulty controlling firearms once they have these machine conversion devices.

A lot of people call them switches, on firearms.

And we have juveniles getting their hands on firearms and on these switches.

And, it can just wreak havoc in our community and it costs us a lot of life.

And so I think that's something that is going to continue to be, a problem in this state, as we see those devices especially coming, it's going to make all shootings more lethal.

Gavin> And are those illegal, as it stands right now?

Boroughs> No.

Gavin> Okay.

Still illegal then.

Boroughs> Yes.

Those are illegal.

>> But you're just seeing them more and more often.

Boroughs> They are.

And...they're small.

And so it's not like finding, you know, it's not like the old days in the 1930s when you find a machine gun, you know, now you're talking about very small pieces of plastic that can often be difficult to recognize, Gavin> and then even ghost guns too are a big concern, I'm sure.

And then we have a few minutes left.

I want to ask you about this need to investigate, these, these investigations into the conditions at the Alvin S. Glenn Detention Center here in Richland County, and the Al Cannon Detention Center in Charleston County, two of the biggest counties in our state to of the biggest jails, seemingly the worst jails.

What was the cause for these investigations?

And what have you learned, at least from the Richland County investigation at this point?

Boroughs> Yeah.

So the causes on both were the number of complaints and the severity of complaints that we received.

We received dozens.

We were looking at deaths and severe serious injury.

And so I think everyone here, at least in the Midlands, knew Alvin S. Glenn was bad.

But the question we had to ask, is it unconstitutionally bad?

And so the investigation was really to get the facts about what was happening and what we learned is that the violence in Alvin S. Glenn is really atrocious.

And you're seeing that people at Alvin S. Glenn are really living in terror and fear for their lives with the amount of violence that's happening at the jail right now.

Gavin>...and a lot of them just waiting for trial too.

I mean, some people are dying, some people being assaulted, just, you know, maybe they're just in there because of something that happened over a weekend, and now they're trapped there.

And, you know, having these conditions.

Boroughs> Exactly.

I mean, no one expects to get picked up, picked up on a minor charge on the weekend and then be faced with the possibilities of beatings, stabbings, rape, when you have to spend the night in jail.

Gavin> And I know some officials have said that conditions have improved since the investigation first was launched, but, you know, what are your recommendations, what should be happening right now to remedy these situations?

Boroughs> So the county has done a lot as far as the physical space.

They've renovated some of the housing units and have plans to renovate others.

So, originally we investigated or in the investigation, we looked at both the physical conditions as well as the violence and the physical conditions have gotten better.

That is 100% true.

The violence has not.

And so some of the recommendations we look at is things like housing classifications.

Are we housing very violent people with nonviolent people?

Are we making sure that we're taking into consideration gang affiliations and workings in the way we, house and classify people and where we put them?

And then a big one is staffing and supervision.

What we found in many instances where people were seriously injured and the jail didn't know about it for days until they found out from the outside just because there was no staff in the housing unit.

And so when people were seriously injured, they had no way to get help.

And so you had people calling the outside trying to call back to the jail.

So the level of supervision really needs to increase Gavin> and really quickly, any plans for the future we should be looking forward to when it comes to you in politics, perhaps?

Boroughs> Got no, no plans yet.

I'll let you know when I do.

I'll come back.

Gavin> We have to leave it there with U.S. Attorney for South Carolina, Adair Ford Boroughs, thank you so much.

And that's it for us this week, y'all.

For South Carolina ETV, I'm Gavin Jackson.

Be well South Carolina.

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