Narrator> This podcast is made possible through listener contributions to the ETV Endowment of South Carolina.

(Hip hop music) ♪ ♪ Kennedy> Music has always been more than entertainment.

It's been a megaphone, a rallying cry, a record of resistance.

On the "AUXdacity", we're diving into political beats, exploring how protest music, folk traditions and civically engaged sound has shaped movements, change minds and pushed history forward.

Courtney> From freedom songs to modern day anthems, the music becomes a message and sometimes a movement in itself.

Kennedy> That's right.

Today, guys, we are joined by two leaders whose work sits at the intersection of policy, people and purpose.

We have Anton Gunn, a civic leader, a strategist.

We also have Representative Hamilton Grant, a South Carolina leader and a community advocate.

Courtney> All right.

So we know that's not all they do.

So let's just start with Hamilton.

Can you tell us a little bit about yourself.

Rep.

Hamilton> For sure.

And thanks for having me.

Hamilton Grant, representing House district 79.

42 thousand constituents.

Northeast Richland County.

Born and raised here in, Columbia, South Carolina.

Graduate of two HBCUs.

South Carolina State University was a drum major on the marching 101.

<Oh> And Alabama A&M.

So music and politics always intersect for me.

Courtney> That's wonderful.

<Okay.> Anton.

Anton> I'm Anton Gunn, I'm a leadership consultant.

I help leaders build diverse, high performing teams in a world class culture.

I keynote about 50 times a year across the country to big organizations and small organizations.

And what I tell my audience is, when you experience me as a keynote speaker, you're going to experience hip hop, smoothed out on a leadership tip with a corporate feel and a business appeal, because I love to bring the music and the culture into everything that I do, because hip hop is who I am.

Courtney> Anton, I can, I can already hear it.

You were emceeing in a past life.

Kennedy> I wanted to say are in the 90s.

Courtney> I hear it.

I hear it.

We're going to get into that.

Yeah.

Let's start with you, Hamilton.

You stated a lot about, like, growing up in South Carolina.

You represent a district here in South Carolina now.

Can you tell us about how the culture and music of this place shaped who you are?

Rep.

Hamilton> Yeah.

So growing up in the South, music was everything.

You had that soul, whether it was growing up in the church and hearing the gospel.

Soul in the chords, Whether it was coming up in the crunk era, Little Jon or even in college in the trap era.

And so all of those things kind of interfuse.

Right?

Because that's who we are as Southerners.

And, you know, specifically here in South Carolina, we have our own unique way of doing things, whether it's the Low country gospel sound of the Geechie clap or how they do in - <that triple clap.> There you go.

And so I think, things that make us unique to our sound also give us the confidence and personality.

And so I think what you listen to or how music, really impacts your life because music does charm the soul, really helps you become who you are and help you live out your everyday life.

Kennedy> Now, Anton, now you from the south, but you now from South Carolina.

<Yeah.> 757, state of the star.

That's Virginia, if you guys don't know.

<Yes.

Right> Now, how has I guess being in Virginia and being in South Carolina, being in the South, how has that kind of, I guess, the culture and music and I guess the political climate of maybe even both states kind of shaped who you are today?

Anton> So, I'll be very honest with you.

Hip hop is how I got my social consciousness.

Growing up in Virginia, you know, my father's from Portsmouth, in a community called Cavalier Manor.

If you've ever read a book called, "Makes Me Want to Holler" by Nathan McCall.

That whole first chapter is about my dad and his friends in the neighborhood.

So, my dad was, was not always on the right track growing up.

And, as a son, I fell into those same trappings as a as a pre-teen.

<Yeah.> And, it was after an encounter where I was arrested at 12 years old that I found hip hop and I found "It Takes A Nation of Millions "To Hold Us Back" by Public Enemy.

And after that point, I only wanted to be a rapper.

But I didn't want to talk about parties and having fun and girls.

I wanted to talk about what was going on in my community.

<Yeah.> At that time, the crack epidemic was hitting a lot of neighborhoods.

My uncle, my cousins, a lot of people were stuck in that, in that life.

And so for me, music became an outlet.

How I was able to elevate my social consciousness.

I didn't know who Malcolm X was until I read the liner notes on Public Enemy's album.

I didn't know who H Rap Brown was.

I didn't know anything about the Panthers until Public Enemy introduced it to me.

So my whole context around being Black, being a Black man in America all came from Public Enemy.

What I understood about politics came from Public Enemy, and that I channeled that into a life of activism from really my late teens and early 20s.

I remember going to anti-apartheid protests at Norfolk State University, all because, you know, there was a song called "I'm Not Going to Play Sun City", and Afrika Bambaataa rapped on that song.

So for me, the music is not a separator for how I understand politics and the world.

It is the lens by which I see it, and I think about the role that music has played in all of our lives.

And we can go back to the 60s with Marvin Gaye, "What's Going On?"

But for me, I didn't connect to that.

I did connect with KRS One, asking why is that?

And explaining to me the early books of the Bible through rap and through hip hop.

So I learned more about Jesus Christ by listening to KRS in the early days than I did by going to the Catholic church that I grew up in.

So for me, I can't separate hip hop from anything of who I am is how I see the world, how I show up every day, and what I really feel like we all should reconnect to.

Because somewhere along the lines, music has become more about, for a lot of people, about the party and the vibe and the money and the trappings of life.

But how we have always evolved and found success in this world has been through the music and through the culture.

I mean, you have a soundtrack to every movement.

There's a soundtrack to the women's rights movement.

There's a soundtrack to the Civil Rights Movement.

So the question is, today where we are, what is the soundtrack for the challenges that we see in the world?

But most importantly, what are we going to do about those challenges?

Courtney> So liner notes... All right.

So listen, on the records, there would be an inside sleeve.

And the artists have an opportunity to explain their process, the writing and a lot of the poetry that went into what they did and that you heard on that record.

So I had to tell the kids what a liner note was.

Anton> Don't' forget to tell the kids that the liner notes also had the lyrics to their song in there.

So you didn't have to look them up online and you didn't press the button or add to the scrolling history.

You literally had to pull it out and read it.

And I never forget taking that cassette tape, which is another thing you need to learn, taking it out and pulling it out, open it up and reading every word of 911 is a joke, every word, of "Fight the Power", every word, of "Rebel Without a Pause".

Every word of "Terminator X on the Edge of Panic".

And that music gave me life.

And I wanted nothing else to do but to be exactly like Chuck D. And that's why I asked Chuck D to write the foreword to my first book, because his words changed my life, and as a speaker, my words changed culture and organizations.

I still want to be Chuck D, <Yeah> when I grow up.

Kennedy> So all right, so.... I teach high school.

<Yes.> A lot of these kids, they don't know what cassettes are.

They don't know what records are, and they don't know anything about politics.

Right.

But you just had a young man say that he learned about politics through music.

How would you connect the community that you serve, especially the young people in your community, to politics through music in a way that was able to impact somebody like Anton when he was young?

Rep.

Hamilton> Yeah, for sure.

I think you got to make it a common denominator.

Right.

And so a lot of people are not engaged in politics because one, you literally cannot afford to be.

Courtney> Yes.

>> because we have so many things going on in our everyday lives that we are constantly putting out fires, that we don't have time to turn on the TV to see what's going on.

So when I'm having conversations with people, particularly young people like you said at high school, I'm relating to how politics and the decisions that I make at the State House impact your everyday life and how a vote that you or your parent take or don't take impacts your everyday life.

A lot of times when I talk to students, we're talking about cell phones.

And so, you know, you're getting a lot of music off of your cell phone.

You get a lot of music off of social media.

You can't do a Tik Tok challenge going in between class because you got a cell phone ban.

And it's free to focus.

<Right.> And so a lot of times, relating to what is going on from a policy standpoint to where we are in a cultural society or even where we are, what type of music that you listen to, you know, what are the lyrics that you listen to say?

Are they impacting your community?

Right.

And so if we have a massive surge of gun violence happening where kids from 14 to 19 are the ones that are getting shot or breaking into cars, well, what is influencing that?

So what is in your ear?

What are in your AirPods?

And so having that deep dive in conversation and separating the real from reality is, is, is a big thing to do, because a lot of times, I think the youth right now are so entrenched in an image that when that image becomes reality, it's too late.

<Yeah.> And a lot of that is so heavily influenced through music.

I mean, and it's nothing new.

It was the same with us growing up.

And so we, we wore the baggy clothes, the white tees, the Girbaud jeans, the big chains, because that's what we were influenced.

Cash Money came out with "Bling Bling" or, "No Limits Soldiers" were out.

And so we wanted that look.

And so that's what we portrayed.

But we were often stereotyped because of the choice and fashion that we did, without anybody really peeling back the layers to see who we really were.

SheJay T.O.> Artists then, like Anton talked a lot about Public Enemy, Chuck D, so who would you say, two parts, who would you say is an artist now that the younger generation can, like, look to, to have that same feeling?

And do you also feel like when, when you were coming up, you didn't you didn't have to start behind, the start line like right now, like Hamilton said, you have you almost have to encourage people like, hey, you should vote.

So whereas when you were growing up, you didn't necessarily have to convince people to the, this extent this is why it's important for you to vote.

So you first have to then convince them that it's important to vote.

And then how do you reach them once you.

So it's almost like you're starting from, you know, negative before you can even get to.

But what artists would be...?

Anton> Yes.

It's a great question and is a super tough challenge for me to answer.

So I have a 21 year old daughter who, I ask her a lot about her choice in music.

Now, I will say her music palette is much broader than mine.

Like I don't listen to nothing, but hip hop, you know, it's as far as I go as far as I've ever wanted to go.

But she has a very diverse palette, and she was talking about some group called The Neighborhood and another group called The Weekend.

I don't know, neither one of them.

And I said, I'm not trying to hang out in your neighborhood for the weekend.

I just want some Niles That's all I want.

But I ask her about the music.

Like who?

What artist speaks to her, and she, doesn't really have an answer.

You know, she doesn't really have an answer.

And so I don't really have an answer.

But I think how we get to an answer is we have to think about this.

All of us care about things.

We care about a lot of things and the things that we pay attention to the most, are the things that are painful, urgent and costly.

If we think about that lens, in a young person's life they're struggling with something, who's speaking to their pain, who's speaking to an urgent concern for them right now, and what's costing them money or opportunity in life?

And so I can tell you her favorite song is, Travis Scott and Kendrick Lamar song called "Goosebumps".

I know that's her favorite song, but I don't know if that lyric speaks to the lens around why you need to vote and, what you need to do.

I know I give that to her as a father to make sure she understands that she has a responsibility there.

And we also made her go volunteer to work the polls on Election Day tonight, and be a staff person to see the experience of helping Richland County carry out an election.

But other than that, she doesn't really get it from the music.

And I think that's a function of how times have changed.

I'm the origin group of hip hop and what I mean, origin, we didn't create it, but we were the first group of people to participate in it and share it with the world.

And because of that, we have some ownership around it.

And I think today people don't have ownership of the music anymore.

They're consumers of the music.

We owned it and lived it.

But when you're a consumer, you only want what's going to give you the good feelings and value and not necessarily what's going to speak to what's painful and urgent and costly.

Rep.

Hamilton> If I can add to that, because I think Anton brings up a very good point, because when you talk about the music and what the youth are listening to today, and how it's so drastically different from when he was coming up, I think you have to speak to the fact that people don't trust the process.

Anton> Yes.

Rep.

Hamilton> And if people don't trust the process where Antoine's or Anton's talking about music that gave solutions, we're talking about problems.

And if all you hear are problems and from your leaders, you don't see the solutions, what is the point of writing about it?

And so I think there's a massive disconnect between the community and what is it that you were feeling, and how is it that I can help with that?

Because we're all feeling the same pain, because we have these shared experiences.

If you are in my district or you're in my, you're my constituent.

I'm not far from the reality you live.

In fact, we often share it because we're in the same geographical space.

And so if I can't relate to you from that part, we have a major problem in representation.

And so I think we as elected officials and leaders must do a better job in getting back out in the streets, getting back out in the communities, you know, having town halls, at certain places are great, but I have my best impact when I go to the local cigar bar, when I go down to the barbershop and have these conversations because the barbershop is full of lies.

The problem is not the lie, the problem is there's nobody fact checking it.

<Yes.> And so when you don't have these people who will put away their titles and put on some Jays and actually be a real person having that conversation.

Then you really don't get anywhere.

Anton> You know...we, can I add on to that and I'm going to rewind the clock a little bit.

I remember I was on a show some years ago, a long time ago, and it was a guy on there.

He was an older Civil Rights leader who was talking about doing voter registration.

He was like, you know, we go to the churches to do voter registration.

We go to church and do voter registration.

And my response to him as a young 30 year old, I said, man, you don't need to be at the church.

You need to be at New Brookland Tavern with me.

where we got a hip hop show where Cool G rap is going to be.

<Yes> because those are the people who need to be to be educated and also participate in the process.

And I think you're exactly right that there is a disconnect for a lot of people because they see politicians and elected leaders not speaking from a position where they live and exist in the world.

It's not attainable to them to see some of the people on TV.

They'd rather see you at the club, they rather see you at the cigar bar, or better yet, just come to the rec center where they playing basketball all day long and have a conversation there.

Those are the places that you connect people to the challenges.

You connect people to their understanding, but you also have to do just as much listening as you do talking around what matters to them.

Courtney> We have said a lot about this generation, but, have to put on for this generation, not a part of it, but I will say No Name is one of the rappers who I think is doing conscious rap in a way that, is accessible.

You know, she's a little bit less mainstream, but I think some of the ways that current artists put their politics and their personality into their music, it's not necessarily about the lyrics anymore.

It's also about like how and where their music is played and how they allow it to be played.

For example, there are artists who won't allow certain politicians to use their music.

For example, there are certain artists who won't play in certain venues.

So I think there's a way, if we are able to pay attention to the actions of our artists and not just the words that they say, for them to be able to communicate some of what that is.

But that's a lot of nuance that a lot of people sometimes, like you said, don't have time for.

<Yeah.> So I understand that.

Kennedy> Absolutely.

We want to show you what it truly means to be civically engaged and how music has influenced, activism and commitment to community.

Here's that conversation.

>> Hey, what's up y'all?

It's Raven with the "AUXdacity".

I'm here with the man, the myth, the legend K.J.

Kearney.

What does it mean to be civically engaged?

K.J.> I think being civically engaged means that you are thinking outside of yourself, first and foremost.

You're thinking about your community.

You're thinking about the people on your street.

You're just thinking of someone else.

I think that's the start.

Identify what it is you want to do and where you want to help.

The next step, then, is to find organizations who are already doing that work so you can join the fight versus starting something up on your home.

Raven> You say, join the fight.

Do you think being civically engaged is a fight or a form of protest?

K.J.> I think that being civically engaged is a form of community first and foremost.

Right?

It's building relationships with people who care about the same issues that you care about.

Now, once you have that coalition of people, then you can fight, right?

Fighting by yourself is...doable, but it's very hard having that community, first before you go out there fighting, I think is a step that a lot of people skip.

Raven> Are there three songs or artists that you say that contributed to the community as a movement, as song, protest or anything like that?

K.J.> Yeah, I mean, I think a most recent example would be Kendrick Lamar.

Alright.

Right.

Like that was definitely a song that a lot of people were using during various times of the 2020 protests, Black Lives Matter, you know, movement for Black Lives, that thing.

So Kendrick Lamar would be number one.

Now, second of all, he would actually be my number one is Fela Kuti, <Okay.> The president of Nigeria, you know what I mean?

Like all his music is very danceable, but if you listen long enough because we talked about eight, nine, ten minutes.

All right, I you listen long enough, there's always a message in what he did.

And listen, you can't go wrong with Public Enemy, you know, Fight the Power, Chuck D, Flavor Flav.

Raven> You know, President Obama's tan suit.

<Yeah.> What do you think about, how fashion plays into being, political or within politics?

K.J.> Oh, man.

I think fashion can provide a uniform, right?

There are certain movements that when you think of, or certain people that you think of within movements, you think of what they wore.

Right?

So, you know, when you think about the civil rights movement, you see pictures, you see, you know, men in suits and ties.

Right?

That was the uniform at that time.

Now you're going to see people wearing Jordans.

You know, you're going to see people wearing Vans or all kinds of things.

But at the end of the day, what you wear is less important than what you do.

Raven> So when we are trying to get, those Gen Z'ers and Gen Alphas involved.

<Right.> Do you think it will be through music, fashion or just show of community?

K.J.> Yeah, that's a great question.

I think we do, Gen Z a disservice.

Number one, we're not in community with them.

That's a lot of talking at them and not bringing them a part of these conversations, letting them know what's going on, showing them the ropes.

And Ella Baker says, if you have strong community, you don't really need strong leaders.

And so we're not doing a good enough job of building up Gen Z, be around us, come to these meetings that we're talking about, just let them see how the process goes and then ask them their opinion.

You know, give them some buy-in.

Raven> Is there anything else that you wanted to say before we let you go?

K.J.> Absolutely.

The Internet is not real.

Okay.

The Internet is a tool of communication.

It's how you can get in contact with people.

But real community is built in person.

So use the Internet to find your tribe.

And then as soon as you can, go meet your tribe, build strength in person.

Raven> All right.

Thank you, K.J., And thank you for having the "AUXdacity" to leave your mark.

♪ SheJay T.O.> Alright.

Hamilton, we got to bring you back to you.

So you brought up some really good points, and I want to touch on how do you feel like the music today impacts the community?

Rep.

Hamilton> It's hard because I think today's music is built off of vibes and streams.

Right.

Today's music is more of a sound versus substance.

And so we listen for certain sounds, certain drops, because we want to be put in a certain mood.

But I can't really tell you that there's something or a specific song from a mainstream artist out right now that makes me want to get involved, right?

And I think that is a big generational difference between how I came up, how Anton came up, and what's out now.

Right?

I've got young, young babies.

So they're not listening to the Youngboys of the world.

However, there's something to be said there because Youngboy is packing out Coliseums.

<Yes.> Every trip.

Right?

Or every, every tour stop.

And so what is it in the music that would attract, a teenager or young adult to listen to Youngboy but won't come to a KRS concert or won't listen to Arrested Development?

And so I think we really got to peel back the layer and dive deep into what is the substance and what is the message of the music and what is, what are some of the after effects that are contributing to some of the ills that we see in the community?

Anton> I'm going to add on to this because I think it's important to, have some context around that.

Some people listen to music to escape the reality of what they are dealing with and going through.

It is a way out.

So you may have some consumerism, of people who just want music because I just want a vibe.

I mean, I've had young people tell me I ain't really checking for no lyrics.

I'm not trying to hear, you know, inside rhyme scheme from Eminem.

I just want to.

I just want to catch a vibe.

And that's okay, especially when we think about all of the challenges that people are dealing with.

But I think at the same time, that is we have to acknowledge that I got my life consciousness around social issues from music.

Music as a teaching tool.

It always has been a teaching tool, but the more we've removed it from schools, the more we removed it from, you know, academic environments, the harder it is for people to find their place, to raise their voice in the music.

And I will say this, though.

One of the things that the music today has done at an unprecedented level is that, there are people who are getting flat out wealthy because they figured it out for one song.

And I think there's something to be said about economic opportunity, that it may not be driving the social narrative or the social issues or the political concerns, but some people have gotten themselves completely out of poverty.

I mean, I think back to Soulja Boy, 16 year old kid, you know, I used to I couldn't stand the music like I thought that was like the dumbest song I've ever heard.

But he's not only changed his own life, but his family's life and so many other people in his own circle.

And so I think there's something to be said that the lack of economic opportunity has been created by music that we invented.

When I say we invented, you know, Gen X, late Baby Boomers, Millennials created hip hop and bludgeoned hip hop to a way that everybody can take advantage of it.

And so, as much as the music may not add a social fabric value today, it has created an economic framework for people, it'll help people to change their lives and their grandchildren's lives.

And that's something that I think I can take away as a positive, even though I'm the old curmudgeoned man who mad that, that they're not spitting lyrics about what's going on in the world There's so many problems that you could just pick one to talk about.

I mean, you don't have to talk about everything, but you can just talk about like, the fact that kids have to think about getting shot when they go to school from an active shooter, like somebody should be rapping about, you know, my mindset or what I have to deal with to go to high school to worry about, an active shooter, or somebody coming to shoot my school up.

So there's a lot of issues that need the voice and the music and the culture, but, it's not always there.

But there are some other things that people just want to catch a vibe.

Courtney> And I will say that music exists, but I think what a lot of kids, especially people right now who are entering that phase of figuring out who they are musically, like, you've seen this, you're a teacher, like, you see how that's developing, but there is so much out there that it is difficult to, like, create who you are musically, whether or not it's like clothes, fashion, the Internet, everything is changing so quickly.

But I mean, I have it before I do, I, I, I think they're dealing with a lot.

Kennedy> Man, listen guys, this has been a really dope conversation.

Thank you all for being a part and being guests on our show today.

Because, listen, it ain't hard to tell guys, political change doesn't always start in the chamber.

Sometimes it starts in the chorus.

Courtney.

Courtney> That's right.

We have curated a Spotify playlist inspired by today's conversation featuring protests, folk and movement driven music.

Kennedy> Listen, guys, I want you guys to have the audacity to leave y'all mark.

Peace out.

♪ Anton> Thank you, man.

Appreciate it.

♪ ♪ ♪ Courtney> One of the issues that's coming up today with, like, ownership of who owns what, we're talking about A.I.

So like going to the present and future of music.

<Yeah> Courtney> It can be very hard to own things when you have, like, the A.I.

generating songs, creating artists.

So what are we doing about music ownership?