I'm Lorrie Anderson, co-owner of Nevermore Books in Beaufort, South Carolina.

What I liked most about Jason Mott's book was the message, and it's a very well written, which I also loved, but the message is ultimately one of hope, and that's what we all need right now.

Readers can expect to find a lot of adventure.

They can expect to find humor, tragedy, and love and all kinds of love.

Not necessarily romantic love, but love for your fellow man or for yourself, which is, it's a, a major theme of this book.

I think that Hell of a Book is so universal.

I think it could work anywhere for any circumstance or a person who feels maybe not, not as good as everybody else, or doesn't have the confidence or is trying really hard to deal with issues that are hard, and so I think that it's, it's way more universal.

It's, it's not just a southern book, it is written by a fantastic southern writer, but it, it speaks to everybody everywhere, and Jason Mott's writing style is, it's very, very contemporary, but it has a little, this book has a lot of noirish flavor to it, but he's also a poet and that is very evident in this book because it's, some parts of it are so lyrical, you just feel almost like it's a poem.

I'm Holly Jackson.

Join us as we bring you powerful stories from both new and established southern authors as we sit By The River.

♪ opening music ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Major funding for By The River is provided by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina.

For more than 40 years, the ETV Endowment of South Carolina has been a partner of South Carolina ETV and South Carolina Public Radio.

Additional funding is provided by the USCB Center for the Arts Osher Lifelong Learning Institute at USCB and the Pat Conroy Literary Center.

>> Well, it is another lovely day here at our waterfront studio in beautiful Beaufort, South Carolina.

This is By The River.

I'm your host Holly Jackson.

Thanks for joining us.

We're bringing you our love letters to Southern writing and we're bringing you powerful stories from both new and established southern authors, and this season we are focusing on unexpected southern stories and writers, and today we are lucky to have the author of Hell of a Book, Jason Mott, and you know, that's just fun to say Hell of a Book.

<Jason> Exactly.

<Holly> I want to know, Jason, first of all, thanks for coming.

I'm really excited to have you here.

I know you've gotten quite the media attention on this book and that has to be thrilling as an author.

Let's start with the title.

When did the title come to be?

Was it during the writing process before, after?

I know you said you've been writing this pretty much in your head for 10 years, so how did that go?

<Jason> It actually came very late in the process.

It was my agent's idea.

I fought it for a long time.

I did not want to call the book that, cause I thought it was just like the most arrogant, pretentious title you could think of, and I was like, imagine if the book fails.

Like critics are just, it serves itself up on a plate for criticism.

<Holly> Right, Right.

<Jason> Like hell of a good try, hell of a bad book.

There's so many things you could say about it, but my agent convinced me otherwise.

She's very smart.

She's like, no, we should do this.

and it worked out really well.

So it was great, but it was not my idea.

<Holly> Okay.

Okay.

Now it's your agent, I believe, who really wasn't sold on the book itself in the beginning.

I've heard you talk to Jonathan Haupt in a podcast, and I believe you said that, you know, wasn't totally sold on it, but why did you go ahead and continue on?

<Jason> Yeah, I kind of, she was very kind, lukewarm on the idea for a while just cause like the idea of like authors on book tours doesn't seem like a, you know, a riveting topic most times, but it was something that I knew I wanted to write and I wanted to address some of the topics that were in it.

and it just, was the thing that I knew I just had to get out, whether it got published or not, I had to kind of get it out of my head and put it onto the page somewhere.

and so that's where I kind of came about writing it, and even then my agent was still supportive.

She was like, I'm not sold, but hey, if it's what you're excited about, go do it.

Go write it and we'll figure it out, and thankfully things worked out really well.

<Holly> Well, I've been doing this show for five years now and it's so funny how authors tend to kind of freeze up on this one question.

It's how would you describe the book?

and it's the one question that of course they're all anticipating, but it's hard to put all this into, <Jason> Yeah.

>>Just a couple of lines.

So, how would you describe, if you have to give that, you know, 15 seconds spiel on what the book's about, what would you say?

<Jason> I would say it's a...comedy drama about an author on book tour that also seeks to discuss the situation of race and policing in the United States.

<Holly> Okay.

<Jason> Very quick, succinct.

<Holly> Yeah that was.

You got that down.

You've practiced that, haven't you?

<Jason> Little bit <Holly> So I've mentioned Jonathan Haupt, and I've mentioned him several times throughout this series of this show and it's because the Pat Conroy Literary Center is, you know, here in Beaufort, South Carolina and they're a very big supporter of this show and, of course, very, know you and know the authors and Wiley Cash, I know you know him.

<Jason> Wiley knows everyone.

<Holly> He's been on this show too, but I really enjoyed that interview that you had with him, and one thing that really stood out with me when I was listening is how you said that whenever you are places like panels and that sort of thing, you're the one looked at for the answers when we're talking about minority, focused questions, and it is just understood that you're going to be answering those questions, and it...seemed to kind of bother you that, that was the case.

So then you, you do cover these topics in this book.

Do you feel like you were kind of like, is it kind of answering a calling in a sense or something you had to do because of who you are, in connection with writing the topics that you wrote about?

<Jason> So I think it was equal parts, truly trying to approach the topics and really have a discussion about them, in what I felt was a very different type of way.

That was a part of it, but then there's also a bit of frustration... that concept where you are oftentimes reduced down to your minority-ness.

Like you're the black author and you're always that, and so I wanted to kind of rail against that even as I was doing that thing.

<Holly> Right, right.

>> I'm always kind of expected to do.

So that's why I say there's a balance between truly wanting to discuss these, but also pushing against it and making fun of being forced to talk about it.

So those two things were kind of where that came from.

<Holly> Okay, and you've said that you pretty much were writing the book for 10 years in your head.

>>Yes.

<Holly> Tell me about the timing, why it was important to come out when it did?

<Jason> So the timing, it, we, I don't know if you got, I don't want to say lucky or what, it just, it happened to hit at the same time things were really happening.

Like we sold the book to a publisher in the summer, right before, right before the summer of 2020.

So right before that whole explosion over the George Floyd situation and riots and protests and like that whole summer of activity of activism, we sold the book right before that happened.

<Holly> So, you had already written this thing before all that happened?

<Jason> Yes, yeah, we.

<Holly> Right.

>> I wrote it, I got finished it in 2019-ish.

My agent and I revised and edited over the winter and we went to sell it like early spring 2020.

So right before all that stuff happened.

So in terms of timing we just, we kind of, we were kind of right on that curve right before things happened, but then the thing about publishing is, publishing still takes a year before the book comes out.

So you have to kind of wait for that kind of go through as well, but I really feel the book has a timelessness to it, unfortunately, where these events are not new.

They're not new.

George Floyd was not a new case.

He was a recurring symptom of an ongoing issue that America has that traces back for generations, and so in that regard it was timely but it was also timeless in a certain way, I think.

<Holly> I hear so many people when they talk about this book, talk about the array of emotions that they feel, they're laughing, they're crying, they're, you know, angry, they're confused, all these emotions.

Why did you choose to bring it all together over and over and over throughout the book?

>> Because I think it was, it was me trying to really put my personality onto the page.

You know, these topics are nothing new.

The discussions had here are not new by any means, but I wanted to approach them in a way that was conducive with how I feel the topics are handled and how I approached them in my life.

Life is a very kind of myriad of emotions and you're happy and you're sad and you're tragic if you don't learn to laugh at the terrors, they will just eat you apart, and so for me, I wanted to have that on the page.

I wanted to have readers who were laughing hysterically one moment and then really heartbroken and sad and angry the next moment, and that entire kind of kaleidoscope of emotions that we have, I wanted to readers to experience that with these topics.

Not just through, typically I think you kind of approach these as very high gravitas, buttoned down, stoic kind of way.

Like we have to really focus and be serious about this, and yes, they're serious topics, but I think you can approach them in semi-serious ways at times and still make it work.

So, that was my goal.

<Holly> Okay, and I think a lot of times when we write, we...hope that the reader experiences something in particular.

<Jason> Sure.

>> But a lot of times we realize by talking to the reader that they got something else.

What have you learned from your readers through this that maybe they experienced that you might not have been going for?

<Jason> I don't know, like I've definitely had some unique readings of the book as far as like how the characters are.

I think the biggest thing that readers are curious about that always, the question I always duck... <Holly> Okay.

>> is like, are the main characters, are they all the same person somehow?

Because there's a main character who's an author, there's this kid that he meets who's kind of invisible, the author's the only one that can see him, and then there's this story of the 10 year old boy named Soot, and so all three of these have a lot of similarities, but also a lot of differences, and people oftentimes have theories about maybe they're the same character, maybe they're not different, they're not the same character.

So I think that's been the prevailing kind of comment of like, what is the answer to that, and of course I never answered that question.

I bob and weave on it.

<Holly> Right, let's move on.

<Jason> Yeah, exactly.

(laughing) >> I mentioned as we began about, it's gotten a lot of media coverage.

I mean that had to be exciting, the big publicity you got from it, but one commonality that it seems that all the big media coverage had was cell phone, customer se, customer service representative one day.

<Jason> Yes.

>> You know, that's, and that's good, ...people love those kind of stories.

<Jason> Of course.

>> What do you hope that, you know, maybe the young writer or whatever age writer who's maybe just starting out get from that story and people love to hear those kind of, they were doing, they were just like me one day and now look at them now.

What do you hope they get from that?

<Jason> I hope people get that it is doable.

It is very difficult and the chances are slim, but like you have to do it because you love it, and sometimes, things do work out.

Not always.

Sometimes they do.

I think I grew up on a dirt road in a town of 700 people and I still live on a dirt road in a town of 700 people.

So for me, the idea of being a writer was never an option, ...writers don't come from those kinds of towns.

Writers come from New York and LA and Atlanta and big towns.

and so for me,... being where I am, I hope will show people that like you can be just whoever you are, your life, however regular your life is, it is also exceptional enough to write about and to build stories.

I hope people get that they can actually do it too.

<Holly> Right.

I want to go back to how you grew up.

Let's kind of learn, let's go back to the young Jason Mott.

At what point in your life do you remember starting to write and enjoying it?

<Jason> Oh yeah.

I remember it very vividly.

I was 14 years old.

I was in a class and I had read a section from a novel called Grendel by John Gardner.

It's a retelling of the epic of Beowulf, which I actually already knew cause I was a big fan of like heroics and monsters and mayhem and those kinds of stories, and when I finished reading it... it had such a powerful effect on me.

I felt like I was vibrating.

It was that powerful, just, you've been moved by something kind of feeling.

and I remember thinking to myself, I want to make other people feel this way one day.

I wanna do this as someone else.

This feeling that I have right now.

I want to do this as someone else one day.

So I think I wanna be a writer, and I started writing short stories after that.

I didn't get serious about it for quite some time, but that was the beginning.

That was kind of the, the emphasis of things.

<Holly> Okay, and as you wrote after that, age of 14, at what point do you remember..., realizing like, I might have a gift?

Or was it someone who told you?

<Jason> Never.

>> No, you were, this was just a hobby, this is just something you wanted to do, and was there ever a teacher, a family member, anybody who said, you're onto something, this is good?

<Jason> Oh yeah.

No, I definitely had, my parents were very supportive.

My friends and family were very supportive, my instructors... because I had did a bachelor's in fiction writing and master's in poetry.

So along the way I had plenty of people who were rooting for me and cheering me on, but I also, I'm a very much a realist.

Like I know the odds and the numbers are trying to become a full-time writer or just trying to get a book published.

<Holly> Right.

<Jason> It is a very difficult thing to do and a few people make it over that fence, and so I always felt the odds were against me, and you know, I had instructors who said, no, like you're, you have something, keep pushing.

Like you'll get there.

It'll be tough and take longer than you want it to, but you will get there eventually, but I was always doubting of that and so I definitely had people along the way, but it's within like the last two weeks I've accepted that maybe I can do this thing.

<Holly> Yeah.

>> Who knows.

(laughing) >> Okay, so let's go back to the, you were a customer service representative for a major cell phone company.

and the reason I want to talk about that is because you're hearing all kind of wild stories, I'm sure.

<Jason> Oh yes.

>> I mean, I remember my mom once worked at a correctional institution and would come home with these stories and we're just like, what?

You know, and so I'm sure you did the same thing.

You come home, like, you won't believe what I heard today.

So are you kind of to the side writing like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Like this would be a great story.

Did you ever, was it, did it ever kind of make it <Jason> a little bit... >>to content of book or will it?

<Jason> No, there's a... lot of short stories we had there.

Like, cause you, you would get these episodes, you know, you call someone and you're on the phone for like 10, 15, 20 minutes usually, and you get these snippets of what their...lives are, and there's this phenomenon where I would learned where if a person realizes they never have to see you again, they can tell you anything.

It's like...a confessional.

<Holly> Yeah.

>>So people would call in to discuss their bill and next thing you know, we're discussing the marriage falling apart or the kids acting silly.

<Holly> You're wanting to send the money yourself, <Jason> Yeah.

Everything's going crazy <Holly> instead of taking it.

<Jason> and so...there's a plethora of stories from there, like just weird, weird moments that I was able to share with people that I'm sure somewhere, So I would work there and I would make notes about the people that I talk with.

So I, yeah, I think there's a short story somewhere there, but it's just, it's also a really cool cross section.

Like you got to realize how people are very different, but there's also so many similarities that you catch from people.

Like, we all have the same worries and fears and that became a part of the writing as well.

Just, you got to see so much of a cross section, you realize that like there's a lot more commonality than people actually expect.

<Holly> Do you think that you're a better writer because of that experience?

<Jason> Oh yes, definitely, definitely.

I hate to admit it cause I hated that job so much, <Holly> Yeah, yeah.

<Jason> but learning how to talk to people, learning how to see people's lives, that was something that really did help me as a writer.

<Holly> Fascinating!

That's really cool.

All right, so tell me about, we talked about, you know, making this a, a job.

Describe how it is as a job.

I mean, you wake up, kind of go through your, your day-to-day as an author.

<Jason> Yeah, so I'm morning writer, so I'm up at like 5 or 5:30 in the morning.

I go straight to the computer.

I write until maybe noon-ish.

So I, for me.

<Holly> So, it's a time thing, not a word thing?

<Jason> Yeah, well it kind of depends.

It depends on which phase of the writing I'm at.

If I'm writing new material, I have like a 10 page per day word count, like quota that I have to kind of reach.

<Holly> Okay.

>> That typically will take me about five or six hours depending on how the day is going.

Sometimes a little faster, sometimes a lot longer, just depending on how things work out.

On average, my work workday is about six to seven hours and then, but I'm done by noon.

I get to pick my hours.

So I'm done by about noon-ish.

So the rest of the day is friends and video games and movies and whatever I want to do with my life.

<Holly> Yeah.

<Jason> But it is...constant.

That's the thing about it.

Like writing is very much a war of attrition.

You have to have good habits, you have to be able to show up and do the job before you even get the job.

You got to show up and do the job of writing.

So I write usually about six days a week, holidays, you name it.

Like, I'm still putting the word counts out and getting the pages done.

That's kind of the secret to it.

There's never any secret to writing, it's just showing up and doing it over and over for a long time.

That's kind of the secret.

Well see what's interesting to me is how you can do that.

>> I mean, I see it as something like, you have to be like, I don't know, in the spirit, in the vibe, in the mood for.

<Jason> Not at all <Holly> Because, I was listening to this Bruce Springsteen interview the other day, that was like three hours long, but that's what he was saying, is like, I can't take breaks, I can't stop If I'm...in it, then I'm going, so I might be going 16 hours straight, which sounds bizarre, but do you ever get in that and you're like, I cannot stop?

<Jason> Yeah, no, there are, there are those really good days where like, you know, the muse shows up, knocks on your door, and she inspires you to sit and do all this creative stuff and it feels wonderful, but those are the, those are the anomalies, those are the rarities.

They don't happen that way.

and for someone in writing, especially after you, you know, you write your first book, you have a second, like you have a...deadline, you've got to get things turned in.

<Holly> Yeah.

<Jason> So you can't wait for the muse.

You can't wait for the inspiration.

You've got to sit down and force it, and eventually it doesn't become forcing.

You're not forcing anymore.

It's just a part of your life.

It's a part of what you do.

You wake up, it's like going to any other job.

Like, you get happy to go and there are good days, There are bad days.

There are times when you hate it, times when you love it, times when it feels so terrific.

You just...you can't imagine doing anything else.

Other times when you're like, why do I do this?

I could just stop and do anything else.

<Holly> Yeah.

>> So it really is, it's like any other profession.

and I think that's the thing to remember.

It's like you can't wait for the muse, you can't wait for inspiration.

You have to make it happen.

<Holly> So at what season in your being an author, did you reach the spot where you're like, "Wow!

I'm really doing this for a job "and...is this real life?

"Somebody, wake me up!

Like, two weeks ago.

"Are you being serious?"

<Jason> Kind of, sort of.

So I've...been a full-time author for 10 years now.

Okay.

Like this, this is like, well last year was kind of my anniversary year.

2021 was my anniversary year or no, this year is.

So, but you never feel like that because it is, it is very much a kind of check to check, feast or famine lifestyle.

<Holly> Yeah.

<Jason> You got good years.

I had bad years and you're always on the cusp...

I got to find a regular job.

Got to go back to Verizon now, like.

Things are just kind of working cause it is very difficult to be a full-time author.

Like, the finances aren't what people imagine they are.

The lifestyle isn't what people imagine it is.

It is just very difficult to maintain, and I've been able to maintain it for 10 years now and it's, and just over 10 years it's hard to keep convincing yourself it's an accident after 10 years of doing something, you're like, well maybe it's not an accident.

<Holly> Right.

<Jason> Maybe I actually do kind of know how to do this thing.

So it, weirdly enough, it is fairly recent that I felt like, oh, I actually kind of feel like I know what I'm doing here.

<Holly> Yeah, yeah.

>> Or this is the thing that, I'm able to do, and so it is very recent, strangely enough.

<Holly> That's really cool.

All right.

So tell me about your, your first readers.

I mean, they, they just have the biggest honor, I believe, but who among your family and friends are the ones that you count on to, "All right.

This is, tell me everything.

Tell me the good, the bad, and the ugly.

<Jason> Sure, so when I went to undergrad at UNCW, my very first writing class there, I met a group of friends about five or six of us who some 20 years later we are still tied at the hip.

We were very much involved in each others lives.

We were best friends.

We texted each other every day and they were all in writing programs with me, and so we learned, they learned to understand my writing as far as like what the writing wants to be.

Not what it is, but how... things I want to say, the topics I want to discuss.

So when I finish a book before I send it to my agent, before anyone else sees it, I send it to them and they read it and we have dinner and they tell me their thoughts on it, and that becomes, they're my beta testers.

They're the ones who know me for almost two decades now and know much a lot about like, what I'm trying to do with the work, and so... they're great people.

They're good readers, They're good friends, and so it just makes it feel very special and it's also feels good to share it with them before anybody else sees it because it's like they're, they've been there for so long that it's like, it's cool to share this thing with them.

<Holly> Tell me about the small town of 700 people.

Is that what you said?

Was that the number?

<Jason> Roughly >> Yes.

Yeah.

I mean,...

I'm from a place that's about 3000, so I was like, oh, 700.

You got me beat.

So, what do they think about, you know, running into you at the store and all that?

I mean, they must be mighty proud.

<Jason> No, they are.

They're very, very proud.

Like...I say, it's a town called Bolton, just like in the book in southeastern North Carolina.

It's been there for years.

My father built a house there and we've lived there our entire lives, and it's a, you know, it's a very cool town, but it is a very small town.

You just kind of blow through it.

There's one caution stoplight and that is the entire town, you know, two gas stations.

That's it... but I really enjoy it.

Like it is a pace of life and a type, type of life that is hard to find now, like it is just that true quiet lifestyle where I've.

<Holly> Is it true that you don't really have much internet reception out there?

Or is that changed now?

>>I do, I got internet back in March.

<Holly> Okay.

>> Like...for the first time in March of 2022.

<Holly> Big deal.

>> I got internet.

It's a huge deal.

It's a life changing deal.

and I will always tell people this and they're like, "Oh, it must be so great not having internet."

No, it's terrible.

<Holly> Right.

<Jason> Not having the internet.

It is atrocious.

Like you cannot do anything now without internet.

You got to drive places just to like email people.

It's terrible.

But yeah, I finally got internet and it's wonderful.

I understand what you're getting at, but do you kind of miss the whole thing?

<Jason>No.

>>You don't at all?

Of not hearing like ding, ding, ding, ding.

I mean, you know, the, the email just piling up?

<Jason> I adore having internet.

Like it is, I think the, I think that we imagine that not having internet makes it where you get away from all that noise, and to a certain extent it is.

It's a cool place to vacation, like... the no internet magic.

<Holly> Every now and then.

<Jason> Yeah, no internet world is great to visit, but you don't like, you don't want to live there.

<Holly>Right.

>>Let me just say that.

You don't want to live without internet.

<Holly> Because that silence, you're wondering what you're missing out on.

<Jason> You're wondering what you're missing out on, but you're primarily, especially for me as a writer, like when I'm writing, I oftentimes need to research.

<Holly> Oh right, okay.

<Jason> I need to branch off, like if I'm trying to get write about some city that's somewhere I need to kind of be able to find that city.

and so imagine you want to research and you got to drive to somewhere and get internet and sit there and like look up this city and town, and then you go back and you start writing and you think of a new one.

It's like, "Oh, I got to drive again, Like, it breaks your entire day up.

It breaks your rhythm.

Whereas now, like having...the, the internet is.

<Holly> A whole new world.

<Jason> The world at your fingertips.

<Holly> Yeah.

<Jason> Like so I can sit there and I can write in mid-sentence, if there's something I'm curious about, I can just open a new window and Google it and find out and you know, oh, okay, cool, and I'm back to writing in minutes as opposed to like an hour to drive off and get internet and come back and.

<Holly> Right.

<Jason> It is so much better.

<Holly> I can tell you're very excited about this.

<Jason> Oh yes.

You have no idea <Holly> This new thing you've got called the internet.

Alright, so we've talked about the, you know, the whole full-time job thing and you know, a lot of it is spent by yourself, I guess, in your house, you know, the quiet and everything in a 700 person town, and then the other part is being out in front of people, the meet and greets, the panels, and probably some difficult conversations.

How, how have you been with adjusting with all that?

<Jason> It's been pretty smooth.

<Holly> I mean, some people thrive on that stuff.

Some people can't stand it.

Are you kind not in the middle?

<Jason> I'm kind of in the middle like, it's part of the job.

<Holly> Yeah.

<Jason>it's how I view it.

It's very much, there's the job of writing and there's a job of authoring and the two are very different animals, and so the, you know, talking about the book, doing interviews, you know, going to events, like that's part of the authoring job and so I'm just kind of used to it, So, when the time comes, like I said, I've been doing it for 10 years.

So when the time comes where I need to promote the book, then okay, I got to put <Holly>Turn it on.

>>Yeah, turn it on, go do the promotion gig and do that, and then come back and do the writing quiet stuff later.

So I've gotten pretty much used to it, and weirdly enough, the job at the cell phone company actually helped me with that.

<Holly> Oh, that's true, yeah.

<Jason> Again, so much of it is talking to people and learning to just say things the way you want to say them.

I had to do that, practice that on the phone.

So here I am.

<Holly> All Right.

Real quick, we just have a few seconds left, but what, what are you working on now?

<Jason> ...working on a new novel.

I have no idea what it's about or when it's coming, so God knows when we'll see it.

<Holly> Stay tuned.

>> But stay working.

<Holly> All right, Jason Mott Hell of a Book.

It's been a pleasure talking to you.

Thanks so much for coming to Beaufort and I hear you love Beaufort.

<Jason> I do.

<Holly> Okay.

<Jason> It's been terrific.

<Holly> All right, and thank you everybody for joining us here on By The River in beautiful Beaufort, South Carolina.

We love having you around.

We'll join... hope you will join us next time right here By The River.

(swoosh) It was important to teach his son not to jump to conclusions, especially when faced with something like this, a person had to take news like this slowly.

They had to measure it out moment by moment and not let it get the better of them.

That was the only way to survive the tide in the long run.

You couldn't just drink it all in like this and let it take control of you.

That was how you lost your optimism.

That was how you lost your hope, and William wanted his son to have hope for just as long as he could.

♪ closing music ♪ ♪ ♪ Major funding for By The River is provided by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina for more than 40 years The ETV Endowment of South Carolina has been a partner of South Carolina ETV and South Carolina Public Radio.

Additional funding is provided by the USCB Center for the Arts Osher Lifelong Learning Institute at USCB and the Pat Conroy Literary Center.

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