> Welcome to This Week In South Carolina, I'm Gavin Jackson.

This week we're talking about domestic violence because it's October and it is Domestic Violence Awareness Month.

And to do that I'm joined by Sara Barber.

She's the Executive Director of the South Carolina Coalition Against Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault.

Sara, thanks for joining us.

Sara> Thank you, Gavin.

Gavin> So we, unfortunately, seem to talk every October about the state of domestic violence in South Carolina because it has had such a, a horrible past.

We've always been featured in the top ten list, sometimes being number one multiple years in a row.

And of course, the Attorney General's Office holds its Silent Witness Ceremony to remember those who we lost in the previous year.

We've seen dozens of women and men die at the hands of a partner, last year.

And so it's really no different sadly.

But we're still waiting on those numbers from the Attorney General's Office.

But we can sadly kind of estimate that they're similar to the years before.

So, Sara, I know we talked about that number before but and it fluctuated between the top ten, where we are on some list that doesn't really register with you.

What number maybe sticks out to you more than how many people have died from criminal domestic violence in the past year?

> The numbers that stick out to me are really the prevalence of domestic violence.

You know, every year, SLED records around 32,000 incidents of domestic violence, ranging from simple assaults through intimidation to aggravated assaults.

And we know that, that is a huge undercount.

You know, the Bureau of Justice statistics estimates that between 45 percent and 60 percent of people report to law enforcement after suffering a violent victimization.

So we're looking at, probably up to 80,000 cases a year of domestic violence occurring in homes.

And so many of those go unreported and people aren't getting help, and are staying in those situations.

So that to me is the number, the big number.

And then, the dollar number.

You know, there was a report a few years ago that estimated that South Carolina spends around 352 million dollars a year.

That's the cost of domestic violence in our state.

And when you think of all the other things that we could be doing with that money, it really hits home on how this isn't... an issue that just impacts those directly affected, but ripples out through our families, our communities, and our state in general.

Gavin> And when we talk about those numbers, those calls that you just listed, 32,000 around that area... how you think that's an undercount too, that also has to be concerning for you, because it probably takes a lot for someone to even make that call in the first place.

Do you think people are already suffering and, and kind of putting up with some sort of situation until finally they made that call?

Or how do you, how do you see those numbers?

Sara> Yeah.

So I mean, I think we labor under misapprehension that it's really easy to report somebody you love, for a crime.

And there's many reasons why people don't report.

The biggest one is fear.

Financial stability.

Where will I go?

What will I do?

What will happen to my kids?

And then also, we sometimes forget about love.

These are intimate partner relationships where people are very emotionally invested.

People have kids together, houses together, lives together, families together.

And so to make a call, you have to be really desperate.

Gavin> And we look at those number of people killed.

The people with calls, you see the volumes there.

What about what you hear from partner organizations around the state, shelters, these groups that are trying to combat this problem.

Are they seeing an influx of people reaching out to them, folks staying in shelters?

What's the need like out there?

Sara> The need is huge.

So, one day last year, September, September the 4th, I think it was, all member organizations answered 100 domestic violence calls.

So 100 people in one day are calling for some kind of assistance from our domestic violence programs.

And they provided shelter to many people over the year.

Around 3,500 adults and children were provided emergency shelter.

So they had nowhere to go, they left their homes with nowhere else to go.

And then you move on from that.

When you look at a whole year of the number of calls, you know, there's 22,000 calls that come in every year.

So it's just a nonstop work.

It's not particularly well-funded work.

It's not particularly well paid work, but it's critical work.

If we are to try and reduce the impact of violence on adults and on the children that are living in those homes.

Gavin> And so let me kind of, maybe, sum up what it's like right now when it comes to the state of domestic violence in South Carolina.

We've been talking about this for years.

We look at the numbers that we've been talking about.

And these stories, how do you sum things up are we moving in the right direction?

Are things getting better?

What more needs to be done at this stage?

Sara> I think things are better if we look back 30 years.

Things are better.

There's a lot more awareness in the community, but we still have a long way to go.

We all need to learn about what resources are.

We need to learn how to react to somebody who comes forward and says they're a victim of domestic violence.

Too often they're shamed or not believed.

And so we need to be ready to assist them, because you might be the first and only person that person tells, and your reaction to that is going to be critical.

We need to invest more in prevention.

We certainly have some policy priorities that we need to get through.

Like, right now, we're focused on a bill that would protect, dating partners and allow them to access orders of protection.

I think there's a lot more we can do.

While recognizing the achievements we've made.

And I think, something fundamental is that many people like to say they're against domestic violence.

We all say we're against domestic violence, but then when it impacts somebody that we know, our reaction might not be, might not show that.

So, we can say that we support all victims.

But when, and we know victims, you know, it's either you or somebody you know... But if it's you or somebody you know, that means you also know somebody who's using abusive behavior in the home, who's using violence.

And that's a much harder thing for people to, to deal with, to recognize and to start holding people accountable.

Gavin> Yeah and we'll get into that a little bit more, especially when it comes to people saying, "that's not my business."

I mean, it's kind of, probably the hardest thing to overcome, especially in a state like South Carolina where, you know, things are... personal lives are way more personal in a sense, and that people don't want to get involved in home life.

And there's a religious aspect to it, too.

So, I mean, how do you... I guess we can just talk about how do you kind of get to that point where you can bring that up to either an offender or to a victim, essentially, and try and mitigate a situation or try and do something or what's the best strategy there in that situation?

Sara> I think if a victim comes forward and lets you know that's happening, the first thing is to believe them.

Listen to them, let them tell their story in the way that makes sense to them.

So don't interrupt them.

Don't interject.

Don't give them advice.

Let them tell their story.

Believe them.

And then help them find safety.

Encourage them to call a domestic violence program that might be able to help them, even if they're not ready to leave yet.

They'll at least know the resources.

So make sure you're educated on what those resources are in your community.

And then sort of stay supportive.

Even if a victim makes decisions that might be different than the ones that you would make and you don't understand them, there may be many reasons why they may not leave.

And often it takes multiple times of victimization for a person to leave.

So really, just staying true to your friend or relative, and helping them navigate what might be a very long process.

As far as offenders, that can be very difficult, but I think it starts early in really making sure that our, young people have adequate, education on healthy relationships.

To know what the red flags are, to know how to be in a relationship, and communicate properly.

And then, you know, not tolerating, you know, jokes about women or rape jokes or anything that denigrates, another person.

If people start victim blaming, push back on that and say, "Why don't you believe them?

I think we should believe them.

You know, it's a lot to come forward."

So I really think there's a lot of culture change around building... a better and healthier society when it comes to these issues.

Gavin> And we can talk about that in a moment too.

But I want to kind of just circle back on what we've been talking about in terms of what we've been seeing, generally with domestic violence in the state.

And we were talking about some improvements over the past couple of decades.

And I know that this a lot of this took... a lot of reporting from the Pulitzer Prize winning piece done by The Post and Courier "Till Death Do Us Part," back in 2015, that really maybe helped illuminate a lot of the problems that we were seeing in terms of prosecution levels.

And just that the... you know, how badly things were in our state with women just always being at the top of the list when it comes to being killed by men.

So when I look, when we look at that and we look at changes in prosecution and sentencing, are we seeing differences at that level as a result of any legislative changes we've seen in the past decade?

Sara> So the, legislative changes or the legal changes that resulted from that article really serve to, raise sentences, to recognize the seriousness of these crimes, which had previously been the 30 day, misdemeanors.

I think there's a lot more that we can do that doesn't necessarily include, more severe penalties but finding other ways that we can hold people accountable.

Whether that be through restorative practices or other kind of alternative forms of justice, because there's a lot of people who don't want to, for whatever reason enter the traditional criminal justice system.

So I think as a community, we can do two things at once.

We can strengthen our criminal justice response.

And we can also look for alternative ways, to hold offenders accountable and improve services and safety for victims.

Gavin> And then when we talk about some other aspects of this, too, we look at how women are killed.

Predominantly women are killed by men in these situations with firearms.

The Violence Policy Center report ends by saying, quote, "The picture that emerges each and every year from when men murder women," that's the report, "is that women face the greatest threat from someone they know, most often a spouse or other intimate acquaintance who is armed with a gun.

For women in America, guns are not used to save lives, but to take them."

Quote.

So are we still seeing men who shouldn't have guns killing women in our state too, when it comes to domestic violence?

Sara> Yes.

And we have no way of, enforcing the gun laws that we have.

I mean, really, if we're serious, in recognizing that guns, and firearms pose a huge threat to women when in the hands of abusers.

We have to remove those guns.

And we have to enforce the laws we have.

Gavin> Cause that is part of the law from the 2015 law.

Sara> It is part of the law.

But there's very little enforcement of that law.

And... I still think people are unwilling to do that.

You know, the way I look at it is that if you have used violence in a relationship, your Second Amendment right is not being taken from you.

You have chosen to give it up because you are not a responsible person with that firearm.

And if we look at the difference between this country and other countries, it's quite alarming how many more deaths we have.

From domestic violence and in other comparable countries, even if our rate of simple assault might be very similar, the level of homicide is far, far higher.

And in our state, the level of or the percentage of women who are killed with guns is higher than the national average.

Gavin> And so, again, that law is on the books that if you, if you commit like high or aggravated... criminal domestic violence charge that you are supposed to relinquish your guns.

Sara> It's any misdemeanor domestic violence charge.

And there's a mechanism in our state to get your weapon back if you're not arrested again for a certain amount of time.

And also if you are under an order of protection, you are also not supposed to have a firearm because the judge makes a separate written finding that you are a danger.

So I think it's really important that we move past this unwillingness to recognize the danger that people pose and to make sure that we're enforcing the laws that we have.

Gavin> Because it's just self-reporting, essentially.

Right?

I'm supposed to turn over any firearms that I have.

There's no way to back that up.

<Right.> Okay.

So we'll see if that ever does get some teeth more so, to it.

But again, when it comes to domestic violence in general, do you think it's becoming easier to get trapped in these situations, Sara?

I mean, when we look at, we'll talk about this more, but sextortion, you know, love bombing, gaslighting, things like that.

I mean, do you think it's becoming more prevalent or do you see it happening kind of easier in some of these situations with just how interconnected everyone is all the time?

Sara> There's many more avenues to abuse someone now, right?

I mean, we've obviously had a very tragic story in South Carolina with Representative Guffey's son dying as a result of suicide when he was sextorted.

So I think it's another area for us to do a lot of work in, work there is to work with young people on recognizing the signs of what this looks like, and also helping them realize that if somebody does this to them, it's not the end of the world.

That there are ways with social media platforms to take this information down.

And so, you know, then to move on, I think, you know, when, when you were a teenager, obviously things hurt more than they do in any other time.

And it can be, you know, we tell people constantly, you know, you can't do anything because it's going to be on the internet forever.

That's not quite true.

There are things that we can do and hold out that hope for people and help them, recover from that.

But I think there are so many ways to abuse someone now.

It's easier to stalk someone.

It's much harder for people to disentangle their lives if they need to move, if they need to hide their identity.

People are much easier to find.

And so that is very concerning.

> So when we talk about it being much easier... what should folks maybe look out for.

If I'm in a relationship, a new relationship, and it seems like things are moving fast, but it seems like everything's working really well.

You know, people say, like, you know, just enjoy, I don't know, "the honeymoon phase" or something like that.

But at what point, does me, you know, it's me spending too much time with someone become... okay, I feel like I'm getting isolated from my friends or they haven't seen me.

Or is it just because I'm, you know, just trying to get to know someone better.

When do we start?

When should you start putting your antenna up, when should you start wondering, is this the right way things should be going?

> So you're exactly right.

It can be really difficult at the beginning to differentiate between a red flag and the normal part of a romantic relationship.

But I think as it moves on, it's about whether your choices are respected.

You know, at the beginning, you might spend more time with that person and not see your friends as much.

But if they start preventing you from seeing your friends, if they prevent you from seeing your family, if they're insistent that all your time is spent with them, then I think that's a definite red flag.

And you should reconsider your involvement with that relationship.

The longer you stay in an abusive relationship, the harder it's going to be to get out.

Gavin> And then do you feel like little things can just compile too, that can compound?

<Yes> You know, tricks and traps in a sense.

Sara> Yes.

And a lot of people don't realize, like, often you don't realize you're in an abusive relationship until you are well into it.

Until you're emotionally involved in it.

And then it gets much harder.

You know, you don't go on a date with somebody an incident of violence happens and then you carry on with that relationship.

It's much more subtle at the beginning and builds in intensity and potentially towards physical violence as it goes on.

Gavin> And Sara, you were talking about earlier in terms of being supportive as a friend or family member to kind of just be there for the person who's going through this.

And it's obviously easier to say, "do this, do that."

But just really being there is probably the best thing to do and support that person.

But when we talk about, destigmatizing, we were talking about sextortion, where people, you know, might have taken a photograph of themselves in a compromising position or naked or something like that.

And then, they sent it to someone that they thought was someone else.

Turns out, they're going to try and extort them for money or expose them.

And we've seen this play out more and more, especially in teens.

So... kind of apply what you were talking about in terms of being there to support someone with domestic violence and what you can do to support someone who might be fearful to come forward, to tell you that they sent someone a naked photo and that they're being extorted.

I mean, like, that is a hard thing to say or to even bring up with a parent, even though you should be trusting that person.

So how do you maybe create that space as a parent or a friend to not be judgmental, but just to be there so people can come to you instead of, you know, ending their life?

Sara> As a parent, I think that's critical that we build that, that level of trust with teens.

And I'm not saying that's an easy thing to do.

It's a very, very hard thing, to do.

And often time, parents think they have that relationship with their teen until they realize they don't.

There's so much stigma in our society around sex in general.

And so much stigma around doing something stupid.

We don't forgive mistakes easily.

And so as, I think, as a community, we need to be able to take a step back from our judgment.

To give grace to people who may have made a mistake, and to be there for them, to let them know that we'll walk that walk with them.

Gavin> And I think, maybe it's getting more attention to just because it has become so publicized, too.

So I'm thinking that might help some destigmatizing aspects of this.

Sara> I hope so, and because it's so common... now, I mean, if you talk to high school students, you realize how early this all starts.

I mean, my daughters were telling me about people they knew who were being abused in middle school.

I'm lucky... I mean, in some ways, because I have this job, there's always been a very open relationship with my daughters and they've been able to come to me when their friends are experiencing trouble or their friends come to them, "Can you ask your mom this?"

You know, how to help.

And so ideally, in a society, that openness would be for everybody.

Gavin> And we were talking about teen dating violence, which there's a staggering statistic saying that one in three teens will experience dating violence, which is kind of horrific to think about.

What does that look like?

I mean, how... how can that be disguised?

I mean, is it playfulness does it cross a line?

What do people need to recognize when it comes to teen dating violence that they need to be on the lookout for?

And how do we strengthen, combating that so it doesn't grow up into criminal domestic violence?

Sara> I think it's very much the same dynamics the age is different, but the dynamics are very similar.

You know, it's always being expected to respond to calls or texts or DMs or whatever, to... to isolation from friends and family that can start happening very, very early.

And I think, you know, I hate to give the schools more to do, but we need, we need some way to reach young people, starting at a very early age to talk about healthy relationships, to talk about things like refusal skills.

How do you get yourself out of a relationship, so that we can help our young people, engage in what are very complex relationships.

Intimate relationships are very, very complicated.

And yet we seem to think everybody's going to know how to do it without any training.

And so we really need to take away that cultural stigma of teaching people about consent, about boundaries, about how to be in a relationship.

And I think that's one way in which we can start to change the narrative in South Carolina.

Gavin> And that seems to kind of go hand in hand with what we're talking about with sextortion.

I mean, that becoming such a popular, tragic thing among teens.

And then we're talking about teen dating violence it sounds like it's a pressure cooker happening in middle schools and high schools that need to be addressed in a sense.

And that's kind of left up to, you know, parents, I guess when it comes down to it.

Sara> Right.

Parents and peers also, what happens if somebody comes to you and says, "this is being done to me."

How do you react to your friends?

Do you shame your friends or do you hold the perpetrator accountable for that?

That's a very difficult time for kids.

They want to be popular and sometimes doing the right thing is not the popular thing.

Gavin> There's a phrase "toxic masculinity" that we've talked about before.

I know it's a buzz phrase.

And, you know, people can take umbrage with it if they want.

But when it comes down to concerns that there are young men looking for role models, rightfully so.

But when you see those role models who are espousing, you know, demeaning treatment of women, I think we were talking earlier about jokes and, victim blaming.

I just wonder how much, you know, how much of that seeps into influencing domestic violence in terms of seeping into, you know, people's ideas that it's okay to make these jokes, it's okay to do these things because I heard X, Y, and Z talking about it, and they seem to have everything going on in their life.

How do you how do you combat that?

Sara> I think we have a very toxic culture around that.

I mean, if these are young male role models telling them they don't have to listen to women, including their teachers.

They don't have to respect women.

That women are there to service them.

Then, we're going to have a very, very challenging time.

And the statistics we're seeing about domestic violence and sexual assault now are going to get worse.

And, I think it's a huge concern.

<Yeah> And I... you know, as one person can't change that, but I hope as communities we recognize how... negative these beliefs can be.

Nobody wants their son growing up with those beliefs, you know?

So how do you figure out where your son is getting their information from?

And then if they're being taught not to listen to women, how do you say as a mother, impact that?

And I think this is a role for faith communities, for schools, for everybody to be involved in, in really... underlining how important healthy relationships are for everyone.

You know, if you look at men who've been abusive, the majority of those have been abused at some point in their life, often sexually abused when they're children.

So when we're talking about men's violence, it doesn't just impact women, it impacts men, too.

Gavin> And I was gonna ask you, we have a few minutes left, just about the root causes, what we typically see driving this problem because it is such a generational problem.

We were just talking about teen dating violence.

And if you don't learn how to have a safe and healthy relationship, that could lead into actual domestic violence, and the cycle can continue, because it is such a cycle for people that have, have been through it, and have seen... you know, someone in their family do it to their mother or something like that, and it continues on.

So, when you look at root causes and how you disrupt the cycle, what's... at the center of all this?

And it's not as easy as that, but what, can you maybe pin this on or work with?

Or maybe people have some warning signs that they need to work on themselves.

I mean, how do you try and disrupt this cycle here?

Sara> I think it's recognizing that we all know someone that it's impacted.

Like I said, it's either us or it's somebody we love.

And that means that we know people who are also engaging in these behaviors.

We have to recognize how widespread it is and the impact it has through generations.

You know, I used to work with the court system and with an offender program.

And I would deal with people, I would see young men in court, you know, they're in their teens, they're in domestic violence court.

And they would say, you know, "I watched my mom's boyfriend do this to her, and I promised I would never be this person.

And here I am."

We saw fathers and sons in that program.

And I think we have to... it's so hard to talk about, there's so much that needs to be done.

But without the full community support to recognize the seriousness of this issue, that's from individuals to faith groups to politicians, to educators, to media, I don't know how we move forward.

It is a full society problem.

You know, I'm sitting here as an advocate, this is my life's work.

But I need many, many other people to make this their life's work, too.

Gavin> And I wonder too, is it simple in some situations too.

If you see something, say something.

Call it out.

I mean, I know obviously we want to help get people out of these situations, but it's, it's not that easy to remove yourself from a life with someone overnight.

But if... if you're just a casual observer and you come across something, I mean, I feel like if I saw someone abusing someone verbally or physically, I wouldn't hesitate to act in a way.

So I'm wondering if that's, if it starts there, in a sense.

Sara> I think so.

And I think it doesn't even have to be... really hard.

You can just ask someone if they're okay.

And that gives them the space to know that someone's concerned for them.

And then to reach out for help... to them for further assistance.

Because... people are often the best judges of their own safety.

And so just to let them know that there's someone who's there... concerned for them can help them start to seek the road forward.

Gavin> And Sara, we have 30 seconds and I probably should've asked you this earlier, but when we see abortion access being greatly diminished in our state and there's another bill, in the offseason right now in subcommittee that would just straight up outlaw abortion, ban it, and also make it criminalized in some aspects too.

What have y'all seen in the changes since the Supreme Court ruling in terms of how the abortion, decision and subsequent roll out, when it comes to the law in this state has, you know, been impacted by criminal domestic violence?

Have we seen any, interactivity between the two of them?

Sara> There's a lot that we won't see.

I mean, when you have laws like this, people are even less likely to come forward.

I think people don't understand how widespread reproductive coercion is.

That means somebody, an abuser destroying a victim's means of contraception, for instance.

We also know that pregnancy is a... sort of a red zone for domestic violence and for physical violence.

And it increases the level of violence, too.

And that can happen with each child.

You know, the current bill, one of the things we're really concerned about, the current bill is that it would criminalize the use of emergency contraception.

So there we may have victims of rape who have been violently assaulted by a man who can no longer even prevent a pregnancy.

So it is a concern and an intersection that is often overlooked.

Gavin> We'll be watching that play out in the statehouse next year.

That's Sara Barber with SCCADVASA.

Thank you, so much.

<Thank you> And thank you for tuning in this week.

For South Carolina ETV, I'm Gavin Jackson.

Be well, South Carolina.

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